God Does Not Predestinate Any Particular Person To Be Saved Or Lost

[gemcgrew]

Banjo isn’t saying this - “that He is somehow subject in salvation to the will and whim of man's "ability" to recognize.”

No one that believes “fee will” believes that ^^

He said that the free agent is absolutely free. He can't avoid it and you can't recognize it.

I’m sure there’s confusion because everyone thinks that the predestination folks are saying man has no choice, but y’all end up saying “no one said man has no choice”.

And some simply can't comprehend the difference between a "choice" and a "free choice".

 

[M80]

Why would I withhold praise from God in that matter, as if He did wrong? Or maybe the better question is, why do you?


I am not in the soul saving business. That is God's work.

Nobody goes to their own place because of anything we say or do.

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬
When we are born again we are all called into the ministry of reconciliation. That is to reconcile folks to Christ. I’m not in the saving business either but it is our calling to lead people to the savior. When he ascended to heaven in Acts he told us to be his witnesses. We have taken the role of Christ to become Christ like and to lead the lost to Christ.
Secondly in Romans 1:20 it says they are without excuse. Obviously it is a choice to accept him or reject him and someone lost can’t blame God for not giving them a chance for they are without excuse. To be without excuse means it isn’t Gods fault. If he chooses some for he11 and some for heaven it would be his fault that they go to he11. It isn’t Gods fault but their fault if they don’t get born again. So no I would not praise a god that chose to send someone to he11 without them having an opportunity for heaven. I praise God, the only true and living God that sent his son to be the sacrifice for all and that whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Again I know you’ll come back with another question for me but it comes back to his foreknowledge. I’ve come so much further in this life when I quit listening to man and started learning from the greatest teacher ever, Jesus!!

 

[Madman]

Nobody goes to their own place because of anything we say or do.

If I am saved, it is all God. If I am not saved, it is all me.

 

[Spotlite]

He said that the free agent is absolutely free. He can't avoid it and you can't recognize it.


And some simply can't comprehend the difference between a "choice" and a "free choice".

You can argue on a play of words and cherry pick here and there from his posts all you want but Banjo has explained himself many times, and you continue to ignore that or address anything other than appearing "elite" and "chosen" to be the corrector of all things biblical.

Banjo basis his thought from scripture and not a quote from Justin Martyr;
Banjo - “This does not mean that the initiative of man's salvation is with man. It is with God who chose to make a way of salvation for all men, especially of them that believe and that conform to this plan of their own free choice.”

Scripture - 2 Peter 2. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ........ heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Scripture - 1 Tim 4 - “For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”

Jesus even bought the unbeliever; the one that denies, and is the Savior of all men, especially the believer, but you and Justin are convinced that “Jesus died for men of every kind, not all men"

Banjo’s use of “free moral agent” does not mean free. It means that God says “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”

BTW - heaven and earth is not recorded against you for choosing life Heaven and earth was called to record against you as a witness that you were given a choice of life or death. There are no ramifications of choosing life.

I do not agree with everything that Banjo has posted, but I can read enough into his posts to know what he means by "free". Do not let your disdain for his belief dictate your responses.

 

[Artfuldodger]

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬
When we are born again we are all called into the ministry of reconciliation. That is to reconcile folks to Christ. I’m not in the saving business either but it is our calling to lead people to the savior. When he ascended to heaven in Acts he told us to be his witnesses. We have taken the role of Christ to become Christ like and to lead the lost to Christ.
Secondly in Romans 1:20 it says they are without excuse. Obviously it is a choice to accept him or reject him and someone lost can’t blame God for not giving them a chance for they are without excuse. To be without excuse means it isn’t Gods fault. If he chooses some for he11 and some for heaven it would be his fault that they go to he11. It isn’t Gods fault but their fault if they don’t get born again. So no I would not praise a god that chose to send someone to he11 without them having an opportunity for heaven. I praise God, the only true and living God that sent his son to be the sacrifice for all and that whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Again I know you’ll come back with another question for me but it comes back to his foreknowledge. I’ve come so much further in this life when I quit listening to man and started learning from the greatest teacher ever, Jesus!!

What's your take on who that group in Romans 1 were? It says that they knew God yet "exchanged" worshiping God for that of idols.

Also what's your take on this;
While God calls all men externally, He only calls His own internally. Those who truly respond to the external call are those who have been internally called by God and given new birth. Then they respond in faith to the external call.

"who hath reconciled us to himself" made me think of God's callings. It sounds like God reconciled us to himself.

Well actually anyone who'd like to respond.

 

[hummerpoo]

Well I’m glad you feel that way. You are so confident in yourself and it’s very apparent reading your comments. To many years ago we had this same discussion when I made the thread “God murdered his son” because if God made sin then he willingly made his Son to die on the cross. I’ve spent plenty of time back then showing verse after verse about free will and eternal salvation for you to only post one or 2 scriptures to twist their meaning. When I asked you if God chose to send one of your sons to He11 would you be upset. You told me you would still praise him. I’m thankful I serve the Lord that gave salvation to all men and men either chose him or reject him by their decision. There is a word in the Bible that says “foreknew”. You still wouldn’t have that either. God knows what decision we are going to make before the foundation of the World. That’s were predestination comes from, His foreknowledge. I guess I should have just stayed away again but it hurts me to know it just hurts me to see men give out wrong Information in here and not help bring folks to the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Jesus said to go out in the highways and hedges and compel them to come. Calvinist sit back and say “well if their going to get saved then it’s going to happen anyways so why should I be obedient to the Bible”. At least from most that I’ve known that’s how they act. A lot also don’t even go to church. Anyways, good luck hunting this year everybody.

Just my opinion: You don't seem to know enough about "Predestination" (your word, not mine) to comment on the concept. But don't let that slow you down.

BTW "foreknowledge", only one part of Omniscience comes after Omnipotence and Aseity.

 

[hummerpoo]

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬
When we are born again we are all called into the ministry of reconciliation. That is to reconcile folks to Christ. I’m not in the saving business either but it is our calling to lead people to the savior. When he ascended to heaven in Acts he told us to be his witnesses. We have taken the role of Christ to become Christ like and to lead the lost to Christ.
Secondly in Romans 1:20 it says they are without excuse. Obviously it is a choice to accept him or reject him and someone lost can’t blame God for not giving them a chance for they are without excuse. To be without excuse means it isn’t Gods fault. If he chooses some for he11 and some for heaven it would be his fault that they go to he11. It isn’t Gods fault but their fault if they don’t get born again. So no I would not praise a god that chose to send someone to he11 without them having an opportunity for heaven. I praise God, the only true and living God that sent his son to be the sacrifice for all and that whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Again I know you’ll come back with another question for me but it comes back to his foreknowledge. I’ve come so much further in this life when I quit listening to man and started learning from the greatest teacher ever, Jesus!!

Q: and what is the "ministry of reconciliation"?

A: 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [i]He has [j]committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

2 Corinthians 5:19 Lit having
[j]2 Corinthians 5:19 Lit placed in us


And who will respond: Jn 6:44, Jn 10:29

Not quite the message your preaching is it?

 

[BanjoPicker]

FORKNOWLEDGE (ROM. 8:28-30)

The word foreknowledge simply means the prescience of od or the knowing beforehand certain events that will happen. If we are to take the Bible for what it says about God, we will have to recognize that God gets to know certain things concerning free moral agents just as they get to know some things about each other. This is plainly stated in Gen. 3:8; 6:6, 7; 11:5-8; 18:18-21; 22:12; Ex. 2:24, 25; Ps. 1:6; Jer. 17:10. God knows His plan from the beginning to the end, and certain passages used to teach foreknowledge from all eternity in connection with detailed events in the lives of free will really refer to His general plan only, not to free moral acts of those particular men, as we have seen under election above (Isa. 42:9; 45:11; 46:9; 48:6; Dan. 2>28, 29; Acts 15:18; Mt. 13:35; 24:36; Rev. 21-22).

FOREORDINATION AND PREDESTINATION (ROM. 8:27-30)

The words foreordain and predestinate come from the same Greek word prooridzo, meaning to determine beforehand. It is translated determined before (Acts 4:28), predestinated (Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:5, 11), and ordained (1 Cor. 2:7). In these passages we find that God predestinated Christ to die for the world (Acts 4:28); that some (it is not stated who or which ones) would be saved by believing on Jesus as their Savior (Rom. 8:29, 30); that those who would freely choose to be saved were predestinated to be holy and to be children of God through Christ (Eph. 1:5); that these children of God have been predestinated inheritance according to the eternal purpose (Eph. 1:11); that they were predestined to be enlightened with wisdom kept secret from of old (1 Cor. 2-7); but no statement is made that God's predestined plan and purpose includes the free acts of free moral agents nor does it name those who will conform to the plan.

This means that God's law is the thing that is predestinated and not the individual conformity to it. All Scripture is clear that men are absolutely free to choose for themselves whether they conform to the predestined plan or not (Jn. 3:16-20; Rev. 22:17). Those that do conform will enjoy forever the predestined blessings and those who do not will suffer eternally the predestined, judgments of the plan. This and this alone is all that the Bible teaches concerning predestination in connection with free moral agents, as one can see under election above.

 

[hummerpoo]

FORKNOWLEDGE (ROM. 8:28-30)

The word foreknowledge simply means the prescience of od or the knowing beforehand certain events that will happen.

I see no benefit of reading further.
Omniscience of God
The omniscience of God deals with what God knows. The term literally means "all-knowing", understanding God's knowledge to be exhaustive of both the past, present, and future.

 

[M80]

Q: and what is the "ministry of reconciliation"?

A: 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [i]He has [j]committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

2 Corinthians 5:19 Lit having
[j]2 Corinthians 5:19 Lit placed in us


And who will respond: Jn 6:44, Jn 10:29

Not quite the message your preaching is it?

Q:
“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭64‬-‭65‬ ‭KJV‬‬
A: looks like what I stand on is correct. He knew from the beginning “who” would “believe”. Therefore he knows who will believe and who will not. God doesn’t force one to believe or not. Don’t know why y’all make things so difficult.

 

[hummerpoo]

Q:
“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭64‬-‭65‬ ‭KJV‬‬
A: looks like what I stand on is correct. He knew from the beginning “who” would “believe”. Therefore he knows who will believe and who will not. God doesn’t force one to believe or not. Don’t know why y’all make things so difficult.

It's not difficult at all: just start with "In the beginning God ..." and never, ever forget it.

 

[M80]

It's not difficult at all: just start with "In the beginning God ..." and never, ever forget it.

Amen but you have to read it all. I’ve always respected you and always will. Your answers are never arrogant.

 

[hummerpoo]

Amen but you have to read it all. I’ve always respected you and always will. Your answers are never arrogant.

Amen but you have to read it all. I’ve always respected you and always will. Your answers are never arrogant.

Thank you Brother for your kind words, they are somewhat overwhelming. Please join me in thanking God for what He has given, and asking
that we not presume upon His grace for more.

 

[gemcgrew]

BTW - heaven and earth is not recorded against you for choosing life Heaven and earth was called to record against you as a witness that you were given a choice of life or death.

You are going to have to spend a little time with the word "against"(ḇā·ḵem).

 

[gemcgrew]

All Scripture is clear that men are absolutely free to choose for themselves whether they conform to the predestined plan or not (Jn. 3:16-20; Rev. 22:17).

"absolutely free"

Banjo’s use of “free moral agent” does not mean free.

but I can read enough into his posts to know what he means by "free".

And some of us are paying attention.

 

[gemcgrew]

If I am saved, it is all God. If I am not saved, it is all me.

God contending with man.

Dualism

 

[Spotlite]

You are going to have to spend a little time with the word "against"(ḇā·ḵem).

I forgot about the wise and prudent lol ?

Some folks feel as if God wasn’t smart enough to give us Bible in our own language. He’s just that good, you know.

 

[Spotlite]

"absolutely free"





And some of us are paying attention.

Not continuing to argue bud, there are 3 of you that are “right” regardless. Carry on….I’m loading my hunting stuff for tomorrow.

 

[Madman]

God contending with man.

Dualism

Some can continue to argue against Holy Scripture and read thereinto what they believe.

 

[BanjoPicker]

Q: and what is the "ministry of reconciliation"?

A: 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [i]He has [j]committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

2 Corinthians 5:19 Lit having
[j]2 Corinthians 5:19 Lit placed in us


And who will respond: Jn 6:44, Jn 10:29

Not quite the message your preaching is it?

RECONCILIATION (2 COR. 5:17-21)

The word reconciliation means to restore to favor, or for those to make friends again who were at enmity with each other. God and man were once friends and they communed with each other before the fall. When sin entered BY MAN'S FREE CHOICE that friendship was broken, and they became enemies. Through the atonement of Christ, the basis of friendship was re-established AND MEN ARE NOW FREE TO CHOOSE to become friends with God again. Reconciliation then is that God act of God whereby men who choose to do so can be made friends of God through the cross of Christ (Eph. 2:16; Col. 1:21; 2 Cor. 5:17-21). God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and man all have a part in reconciliation as follows:

God the Father is the one offended and He is the one to whom men must go for reconciliation (Eph. 2:11-18; Col. 1:20, 21; Acts 17:30, 31).

Man is the offender by his rebellion against God and he is the one who must be reconciled with God (Rom. 5:1-21; 8:1-13; Col. 1:20-23; 2 Cor. 5:17-21).

Christ is the mediator, and He is the one who represents both God and man in reconciling them as friends again (1 Tim. 2:4-7; 1 Jn. 2:1, 2). Christ is the one who became a friend to man by taking man's place to represent him in making peace with God (Rom. 5:12-21; 8:34; Heb. 4:14-16). Christ is the one who satisfied the offended party for the wrong done (Col. 1:20; Rom. 3:21-31; Rom. 6; 2 Cor. 5:17-21), and the One who provided the basis whereby the offender can be free from offence, and sin no more (Rom. 6:11-23; 8:1-13; 1 Jn. 1:7-9; 2:29; 3:5-10; 5:1-5, 18; Mt. 1:21).

The Holy Spirit is the direct power in the operation of reconciling God and man (Jn. 3:5; 16:7-11; Rom. 8:1-16; Gal. 5:16-26; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:13).

Man after becoming reconciled to God, becomes a partner with God and an agent of the Holy Spirit in the ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:14-21; 6:1).

The basis of reconciliation is the work of the mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (Isa. 53; Jn.3:16; 17:22; Eph. 2:11-18; Col. 1:20-23; Rom. 5:10-21; 2 Cor.5:17-21; Heb. 2:17; 4:14-16; 1 Pet. 2:24).

The effect of reconciliation is that man is born again and is made a new creature and is again free from sin (Jn. 3:5; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Eph. 4:22-24; Col. 1:20-22).