The instruction to the disciples Matt. 28

Thread starter #1
Some of you have probably been eating very well if you have been in isolation or working from home and the cook is isolated. I have. So to stir the pot a bit... The instructions to make disciples in Matt. 28 is given specifically to the eleven. I have noticed that many understand and proclaim that this instruction is given to all disciples. What is/are the justification(s) for this?
 
Some of you have probably been eating very well if you have been in isolation or working from home and the cook is isolated. I have. So to stir the pot a bit... The instructions to make disciples in Matt. 28 is given specifically to the eleven. I have noticed that many understand and proclaim that this instruction is given to all disciples. What is/are the justification(s) for this?
The question is necessary.

Even if it only leads to other necessary questions.
 
Considering the scope of a Biblical instruction is always a good idea, but it is something many Christians, even teachers, frequently get wrong.

I see it a lot, for example, in treating "politically incorrect" instructions. I can't tell you how many times I've heard Bible teachers and preachers argue that "the instructions in 1 Corinthians don't apply to modern Christians, because they were given to that specific church due to specific circumstances in that church at the time."

Yet when one actually reads the book, one sees that it is not only addressed to the "Church of God in Corinth" but also to "all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ". The Holy Spirit knew that people would later argue the instructions in 1 Corinthians do not apply to them and inspired the Apostle Paul to specifically include all Christians everywhere in the opening address.

In my life, I've more commonly encountered the error of "that doesn't apply to me" than I have encountered the error of claiming a Bible verse applies that really does not.
 
Truth is timeless, not situation dependent, nor malleable. Men can be changed, truth will not.

If it were not so, none can be saved.

...therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed...
 
Thread starter #7
"teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you "
Very to the point. So " all I have commanded you" includes in the instruction to make disciples.

9 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.


The way I read this is Jesus is giving a specific command here which is to baptize and which baptism will make disciples.

Teaching disciples to obey everything I have commanded you might mean instructions, command following and revealed through the power of their Holy Ghost experiences and and through the Holy Ghost the specific commission to them to be witnesses of Jesus and what happened in Jerusalem in their days. " Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chose:" Acts 1:2 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me..." Acts1:8

It would not follow then that making disciples was a function intrinsic or commanded of disciples. Rather the command was to Baptism so that God would make disciples because: " For John truly baptized with water: but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: KJV

Note that the KJV does not say to make disciples! I wonder why? Perhaps it is because the editors knew that it was not disciples that made disciples but it was God present in the act of baptism that made disciples? After all, even in teaching, it is not what disciples by themselves teach because by themselves they teach as man teaches, but rather what God reveals and instructs to/through them ---this is teachable.

And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught. 1st John 2:27 (BSB).

Also there is a very interesting note about "the word" in Romans 10:8. Specifically it states where it is found and it follows then to me that it is a statement of what the word is! ( But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: ) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made...Romans 10:10 ( I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.Ez 36:26.)

So my conclusion is that Jesus' instruction or command in Matt 28 as to make disciples is command to baptize and with the Holy Ghost and from there He will do the teaching. The instruction is to baptize with the Holy Spirit and for it God will teach. The instruction is not for disciples to make disciples! It is to baptize and God will make those called His own.

What say you who are to Christ? ( And yes Isreal, I have many questions... and for answers I do not venture in the shallows... :))
 
Last edited:
Very to the point. So " all I have commanded you" includes in the instruction to make disciples.

9 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.


The way I read this is Jesus is giving a specific command here which is to baptize and which baptism will make disciples.

Teaching disciples to obey everything I have commanded you might mean instructions, command following and revealed through the power of their Holy Ghost experiences and and through the Holy Ghost the specific commission to them to be witnesses of Jesus and what happened in Jerusalem in their days. " Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chose:" Acts 1:2 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me..." Acts1:8

It would not follow then that making disciples was a function intrinsic or commanded of disciples. Rather the command was to Baptism so that God would make disciples because: " For John truly baptized with water: but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: KJV

Note that the KJV does not say to make disciples! I wonder why? Perhaps it is because the editors knew that it was not disciples that made disciples but it was God present in the act of baptism that made disciples? After all, even in teaching, it is not what disciples by themselves teach because by themselves they teach as man teaches, but rather what God reveals and instructs to them ---this is teachable.

And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught. 1st John 2:27 (BSB).

Also there is a very interesting note about "the word" in Romans 10:8. Specifically it states where it is found and it follows then to me that it is a statement of what the word is! ( But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: ) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made...Romans 10:10 ( I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.Ez 36:26.)

So my conclusion is that Jesus' instruction or command in Matt 28 as to make disciples is command to baptize and with the Holy Ghost and from there He will do the teaching. The instruction is to baptize with the Holy Spirit and for it God will teach. The instruction is not for disciples to make disciples! It is to baptize and God will make those called His own.

What say you who are to Christ? ( And yes Isreal, I have many questions... and for answers I do not venture in the shallows... :))
Commission and authority are inextricably bound.
 
Thread starter #10
Commission and authority are inextricably bound.

Detail please? Also Israel as I read on and study on the Great Commission, I'm worried that the whole idea that we as disciples by definitions are to make disciples is perhaps Misguided zeal when it is not an action under corporate authority with link to the apostles' testimony independent of an individual's power due baptism. So I have to wonder on what you know about authority connected to commission? By definition all Christians have the "power" to baptize, but as I have stated it is that power which makes disciples and not the disciple per say. So we have authority to baptize...and this is our commission. We learn from fellowship not due fellows, but from God which is active in fellowship. The root authority of that worship is which? The apostle's testimony through scripture for example or the words in the mouth of one said saved?


Romans 10

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Now this is not a command of Jesus ( red letters) or is it? If it is what makes it authoritative? Because it is in scripture or because of who said it? Or is this my view misguided, that it is not at all about a confession that leads to salvation, or an instruction on how to proceed or on what to look for, but rather a statement that God lives with a believer and the relationship is not about ups and downs, but life period? So it would be about eternal life and not a feature regards making disciples... though many would claim it is so. It is God who would make someone say this.

So in the same way saints have the authority to baptize and yet it is God that will make disciples through his teaching. A goodly part of the teaching is from the testimony of the apostles which includes their account of Jesus before they received baptism of the Holy Ghost and what the Holy Ghost told them to say totally new. They have the intimate, frank, genuine witness of life before and after the resurrection. Is it from that authority we proceed in truth? or something else?

When we hear by the word of God what is it that makes the word of God authority? Is it scripture check so easily mislead, or for God in the disciple's mission(s) to be let ?

--------------------------------
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
-------------------
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. John 10:5


Who/what is the authority on strangers? After you have made allowance for your individual personality, and have moved it aside as much as possible, who/what is the authority on strangers?
 
Last edited:
We all need a healthy awareness that the business of "making disciples" requires human effort, but that it also requires the working of the Holy Spirit and the power of Scripture. I don't make disciples for myself, but for Jesus Christ. I hope it is not my power or persuasion, but the power of God and his word working through me.

And yet, because I was told to do it, by the grace of God I can do it.

Preach the gospel
Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Teach everything Christ commanded

A huge mistake many Christians make is having no real answer to the question:

"What are you doing to make disciples?"

The next biggest mistakes are:
1. Adding stuff (human ideas) that Christ did not command
2. Leaving stuff out that Christ did command

Since I've been a believer, I've always had an answer for the question, "What are you doing to make disciples?" Most of my errors have been adding human stuff (often well intended and in good conscience, but human), and leaving stuff out.
 
Thread starter #12
Human stuff... How can you trust that what you "think" Christ did not command or did command is not a mistake? and that you will perhaps repent one day of your present thinking as mere human ideas?
 
"And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you."


That matter of authority as to where (or in Whom) it is found, and also its amount is declared. The instruction to "go" is made all in condition by the "therefore"; the only power available from the commanding authority to accomplish anything in the "go" rests all upon the authority of the one commanding.

Between all of this, before one even gets to considering the "how" is a disciple made, who makes a disciple, how is the instruction received or followed rightly to "make disciples" comes every man's book.

Yours, mine, his, and and all of ours. And the books shall be opened. They are even being unsealed as we speak.

That matter in the between is "has been given to me".



Even here, especially here, and specifically here our Lord (our Master) the Christ of God is making no boast of His authority although He is the full possessor. He declares it given Him.

Might He say or do anything according to His will? Who can resist? Who can respond to correct all authority? Who can add or detract...from all?

Yet in the declaration of His all authority comes also the declaration of its being given and received. (A man can receive nothing except it be given him from above)


It brings to mind:

Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

"Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am."

"Go therefore..." says the Lord and Master to him who hears it. Whether others question his hearing, or that others do question his hearing...is appointed. (It's a great help.)

Trying at times? Even severely? No doubt...to even the trying of the man till he know and is convinced of whom he has heard. Even to the sifting out of his own preferences.

Every called disciple cannot settle, is made unable to settle, will be forced to refuse to settle for any fabrication of his own mind. And all he need "be" in any matter to the establishing of his calling is learn to walk faithful to this. Here zeal is inextricably coupled to repentance.

Human stuff... How can you trust that what you "think" Christ did not command or did command is not a mistake? and that you will perhaps repent one day of your present thinking as mere human ideas?
For here is the abandoning of many previous affections, all in truth..but the Lord. Called to know the love of God...he cannot settle for less. And so he learns "As many as I love I rebuke and chasten..." And is no longer quick to "hope"..."gee I hope that is all behind me..." for he has learned that false hope also excludes then the knowledge of the Lord's love. He is learning to be glad in always correction.

Disciples...are placed under discipline.

One brother who suffered great resistance (and does yet) came to write "I know whom I have believed..." Because he refused (was made to refuse) to live in, or according to, myth. And found there release from the greatest tyranny he had known prior. All things of construct (myth and fable) in service to one thing...to think well of himself.

It then not only behooved him to write, but was also his great joy to write in his deliverance...

"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of I am chief..." (tense noted)

But even he, in his authority as a given thing, was also careful. "If I be not an apostle to others..." he wrote. He claimed no authority beyond his field. And what authority he did have in his field was in preference to his own tearing down that others be built up.

And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

He understood "going through the mill"...first. And had seen, and been called by the Elect One of God whose way he was learning to delightfully follow.

The One who submitted to becoming all of what He is not for the sake of His brethren "He who knew no sin was made to become sin for us..." And even then, for the joy set before Him. Letting go of all appearance of righteousness, that the true righteousness of another be apprehended.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.


Paul was apprehending "as the Father sent me, so send I you..."
And was being won to delightfully letting go of all his own appearance of righteousness even to this very point (if one can believe it...) :

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

(And every reader called of God will be forced to consider whether this is mere hyperbole or not)

Will a man so let go of "his own" salvation...and appearance so...for the sake of others? Even before others? Can a man be brought to such uncaring in regards to what seems should be his greatest care in regards to his own soul?


Peter, like so many of my/our self declared atheist friends here and there (and some undeclared, for I have many) have an intuitive resistance born of the same spirit that propels to confession of Jesus Christ as Lord, the Son of the living God. It, in all, appears most counter intuitive to the novice.

"Why would anyone resist the Lord?" especially after they may have even declared Him so? For the same reason Peter rebuked the Lord when He recounted what would be done Him in Jerusalem. For the same reason Peter first refused the Lord's washing of his feet. He did not want it so, because he did not want it so (as he knew it must be) for himself.

And so you rightly consider what must be for the making of disciples. And what (or better Who) must be received as given to the end of both right hearing of that instruction and its charge; (to make disciples) that will force, compel, propel continually in all knowledge of man's insufficiency (as each called man must face it) to the end of obedience.

Paul said:
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?


And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Paul wrote: Instead (or but) be filled with the spirit.

And since God does not forbid one man's looking upon another, even with question...how could any? Jesus even commends those who test:

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

We dare not forbid nor question questioning or trying/testing...to see what another may be full of.
 
Last edited:
Human stuff... How can you trust that what you "think" Christ did not command or did command is not a mistake? and that you will perhaps repent one day of your present thinking as mere human ideas?
God doesn't get mad at honest mistakes the same way as he gets mad at intentionally failing to follow his instructions.

I don't trust what I "think". I trust what the word of God says,

"Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

When the human disciple maker puts too much into his own words, there is more room for human error than when we simply read the Scripture and commend our fellow man to hear from God directly by reading the Scripture also. I've made fewer mistakes with the approach,

"This is what the Bible says ...


Yes, it means what it says."

We need to have a healthy enough fear of God that we walk in humility as we carry out our obedience to the Great Commission. But if our fear paralyzes us from obedience, we are like the servant who hid the talents in the ground.
 
Good discussion on a vital subject for every believer.

I recommend "The Best Kept Secret of Christian Mission" by John Dickson.
My copy is published by Zondervan; ISBN:978-0-310-32863-6. I haven't looked for other publications.

As I recall the author wrote his dissertation on missions in the OT, then wrote a scholarly book on missions more generally, then got around to this book for the lay reader; so he has the creds.
 
Thread starter #16
(Ref: Post 13, Israel.)Your insight on how Peter was not obtuse is very interesting. Most think he was of an obtuse kind of personality. In his shoes I would of probably reacted as he did but for other simpler motives you mention-- like shock for natural fight or flight. Nevertheless it is true that when he made to speak in the Acts...he is not a shallow personality and so you ideas are indeed interesting...
--------------------

To be a servant to my neighbor, my enemy even, is a radical intervention in the history of the world. It flips the stamp of empires from being mere conqueror savages and this is HUGE! Empires are pockmarked with institutions and individuals that cannot easily assimilate the radical nature of God. Such is perhaps the mental makeup so difficult for Jews in Peter's days-- who knew the ins and outs of being conqueror and conquered--that a jew and his people presently under Roman hegemony would seek peace in the way Jesus does. ( If Jesus came now to our cultures to save the world--would we not be misled like Peter in response? I think so. Very few's personality would be all in in appreciation as our great grand children might much latter be.)

-----------------------------------------

Christians have a history of getting off track however. Already, and it is early in Christian history, in Revelation some are drifting from what is HUGE for the individual and the Church. The problems were many: unfaithfulness and luke warm faith, false prophets, taking love and the giver of love for granted, compromising beliefs...

Some of these churches and some the individuals in them could of genuinely understood that they were called especially to the Great Commission. So what made their ministry, despite the sins within and the failings, to evangelize true?

How is it that making disciples is a conquering mission but not conquering as does the world? Are ministers' anointing to be in likeness as Paul or as Christ or are they by the hands of the Church? If they are anointed by mimic, even in earnest, and mimic of mimics then they can plant churches to their kinds, but if they are anointed by the hands of the Church the kinds would be very limited.

When called to ministry did Paul differ to the Church or to his ideal Jesus? And so was his ministry to the Great Commission his differing to his personal insights into God's will, his zeal due what had changed for him, his copy of others in ministry or his anointing by the Church?

Why would the Church need to anoint ministers to the Great Commission? Many Christians note outward appearances as sufficient motivations for some and that they are moved by religious spirits---they play at church and God. Many Christians accuse other Christians of being false, and that they and their kind are not. Many Christians accuse that some Christian love need to be also as the father loved with admonitions in the Old Testament or indeed as the world loves. Many Christians are accused by other Christians to compromise beliefs---especially when the wind blows not favorably as the world sees favors.

Now are the individual Christians with such judgement individually Commissioned to make disciples? Is it an anointing automatic with baptism or/and said one "saved" or an anointing need be of the Church. When the commission was given to the eleven was it given to them as the eleven cooperatively or individually? So did Paul branch out on his own or did he differ to the apostles before his ventures?

( Praise the Lord, what is a good settlement?)
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #17
God doesn't get mad at honest mistakes the same way as he gets mad at intentionally failing to follow his instructions.

I don't trust what I "think". I trust what the word of God says,

"Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

When the human disciple maker puts too much into his own words, there is more room for human error than when we simply read the Scripture and commend our fellow man to hear from God directly by reading the Scripture also. I've made fewer mistakes with the approach,

"This is what the Bible says ...


Yes, it means what it says."

We need to have a healthy enough fear of God that we walk in humility as we carry out our obedience to the Great Commission. But if our fear paralyzes us from obedience, we are like the servant who hid the talents in the ground.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your honesty. What you have said here is for me the classic response of those who put most trust in what the bible says... which of course ( for me) says what you think it says (which is delineated between you and the Holy Spirit and what scholars say it says. Not everyone learns in this same way.

Now let me be honest, my trust in the word of God is not so much what the bible says, but rather due more by what comes out of the mouth of someone who's heart is to Christ which follows their hearing or saying. The fresh words of saints, like when Paul first vocally stated-- includes all the will of God for everyone. If I sense fear to be the motive of not venturing outside of Paul's envelope lock up within scripture, I worry that the mimic of Paul or Christ does not release the blessings within the heart of an anointed saint to its potential. It makes scripture the all in all-- and life somehow arrested.

Now I say this not to put you down or myself up, nope! I simply do not understand fear to be a Christian motivation to ministry or life. Fear for me belongs to the old world before the Saviors ministry. What seems to be wanted is fearless lovers. Yet even these must be checked. So perhaps to repeat myself scripture used to check my life due to fear that my new heart in Christ might be weak as to the world seems to compromise God's will to put and get me with a heart of flesh and His will to teach me directly. So my check has to be something other than scripture. I'm not sure what it is yet... ?
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #18
Good discussion on a vital subject for every believer.

I recommend "The Best Kept Secret of Christian Mission" by John Dickson.
My copy is published by Zondervan; ISBN:978-0-310-32863-6. I haven't looked for other publications.

As I recall the author wrote his dissertation on missions in the OT, then wrote a scholarly book on missions more generally, then got around to this book for the lay reader; so he has the creds.

So can you briefly list a few points from the book? If it is God's will you do it? :) Also, your voice on this topic would of course be well received, as is ever the case.
 
Have gun will travel. Have apostles' Holy Ghost baptism will travel. :)
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your honesty. What you have said here is for me the classic response of those who put most trust in what the bible says... which of course ( for me) says what you think it says (which is delineated between you and the Holy Spirit and what scholars say it says. Not everyone learns in this same way.

Now let me be honest, my trust in the word of God is not so much what the bible says, but rather due more by what comes out of the mouth of someone who's heart is to Christ which follows their hearing or saying. The fresh words of saints, like when Paul first vocally stated-- includes all the will of God for everyone. If I sense fear to be the motive of not venturing outside of Paul's envelope lock up within scripture, I worry that the mimic of Paul or Christ does not release the blessings within the heart of an anointed saint to its potential. It makes scripture the all in all-- and life somehow arrested.

Now I say this not to put you down or myself up, nope! I simply do not understand fear to be a Christian motivation to ministry or life. Fear for me belongs to the old world before the Saviors ministry. What seems to be wanted is fearless lovers. Yet even these must be checked. So perhaps to repeat myself scripture used to check my life due to fear that my new heart in Christ might be weak as to the world seems to compromise God's will to put and get me with a heart of flesh and His will to teach me directly. So my check has to be something other than scripture. I'm not sure what it is yet... ?
The gift promised.
It was not the scriptures.
Indeed without the promise fulfilled (though we may not always be sure as to the who) we can always be sure the scriptures will be twisted, to both the speaker's harm and those that follow.

Testing and trying are both for our instruction and for our own examination. That gift is either increasing in our esteem or being despised.

It is not unusual for a man to note necessity, but the man in extremis comes to understand. The professor teaches "oxygen is necessary for human life", the man gasping has a different understanding of what necessary means.

Neither is wrong.
 
Last edited:
So can you briefly list a few points from the book? If it is God's will you do it? :) Also, your voice on this topic would of course be well received, as is ever the case.
In the Forward Ravi Zacharias states "..., with soberness I have often said that I have little doubt that the single greatest obstacle to the impact of the gospel has not been its inability to provide answers but the failure on our part to live it out."

When I have read a book, if its to my liking, it has a market value of about $0.50 because I have emphasized, noted, expressed my opinion, and argued with the author with my pencil throughout. I liked this book because it points out, as very few commentators do, what I believe is an important instruction to all believers, that is found all through scripture (I call it lifestyle evangelism, others have other names). Back to the point; I flipped through the book looking for three stars and found this on pg. 188 of the 218 pg. book: "The point is simple: we are to live lives worth questioning and then offer answers worth hearing." Understanding the authors emphasis on "lives worth questioning", by placing it first, is easy if you have read the first 187 pgs., in which many specifics are discussed (prayer, financial giving, individual and corporate beneficence, inter personal relationships, etc.), as they relate to missions and evangelism.

That reminds me of how so many like to quote 1 Peter 3:15, but seem oblivious to 2:12 - 3:14 which tells us what prompts the need to "make a defense".
 
Top