former theist turned atheist....

[bigreddwon]

I've read where some of the atheists on here were once associated with mainstream churches or denominations before turning away. In my debating over the years I've found that, by and large, most who turn away were associated with the more ritual-based, ceremonial type churches, like Catholics. Rarely do I find atheists who were once 'saved'....with a relationship with Jesus....who have turned away, but I'm sure there are some on here that can relate.

Hebrews 6:4 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away....


Who on here can relate?

I was born into a family where everyone was Jehovah's Witnesses. My Aunts Uncles, everyone. I grew up totally believing in God, until I was about 8 or 9. Little things I heard the Elders say or read in the bible, caused me to question then doubt the exsistance of a god. Trust me, we read us some bible I tell ya. We did Sundays, Wednesdays and sold Watchtower magazines all weekend.

At about 10-11 I had serious doubts and by 13 was asked not to come back by my family because they were embarrassed to be associated with 'that kid that wont stop askin questions'. My 'Elders' were not theologists.. They were plumbers and cops and working guys. They had no answers to my questions but I got from them the answers I needed.

I tasted nothing 'sweet' or nourishing spiritually there at the Kingdom Hall. I missed no relationship with any character in the book I spent so much time reading and having read and re-read over and over for 13 years. All most a 40 hr work week of RELIGION! hehehe If I'd only gotten paid.

I became enlightened the moment the door hit me where evolution split me...

 

[mtnwoman]

I've read where some of the atheists on here were once associated with mainstream churches or denominations before turning away. In my debating over the years I've found that, by and large, most who turn away were associated with the more ritual-based, ceremonial type churches, like Catholics. Rarely do I find atheists who were once 'saved'....with a relationship with Jesus....who have turned away, but I'm sure there are some on here that can relate.

Hebrews 6:4 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away....


Who on here can relate?

I can relate and got the testimony to prove it.
I'm sure most of you know the story of the Good Shepherd who will leave the 99 lambs to go fetch the lost lamb that belongs to Him. That's me...the lost lamb. I could do a long version, but I'll spare y'all and make it really short and sweet.
Sometimes the shepherd would have to break the lamb's leg to keep it from running away again...and get it to surrender itself to the shepherd. I was saved at 12 and I knew I was saved, but ran far away into dark sin. I never denied Christ, I just hid from Him, for many reasons. Then boom 40 yrs later, He came to get me, out of the clear blue and brought me back to the fold. I didn't even have sense enough to know how lost I was. He always knew where I was though. He didn't even have to break my leg, I had been rendered in life to the point, I was happy to be snatched back.

Two side notes..
Christ says if you are truly saved nothing will snatch you out of the palm of His hand....in the long run.

And at crusifixions,most of the time the guards would have to break the legs of the men on the crosses to get them to surrender to the cross which was designed for torture and then asphyxiation.
Jesus' legs were not broken as He surrenedered to the cross. And that was one of the proofs that the witnesses of the resurrected Jesus didn't have was a broken leg, along with the holes in His palms/wrists.

I always wondered why God let that happen to me, I was angry for a long time for Him 'letting' me get myself that deep. But I have been able to help a lot of people in the same shape I was in, because I can understand what they are going thru, and I suppose Christ knew He could use me to do that.

 

[vowell462]

I didn't detect sarcasm, vowell, just mentioned that I almost never see it in your posts.

I think you misunderstood me. No one is impossible to save, but I don't believe that someone can be saved, then become an atheist (counting Jesus as just a normal person and that he died and rotted like normal people) and then become saved again. That's what the Hebrews scripture is talking about; those who once were saved (having been sanctified by Christ's blood) but no longer believe. Apostasy is what I was talking about. (again, some Christian denominations would argue that once you confess Christ, even if you're 5 years old, that you can not lose your salvation, even if you come to believe that Jesus was nothing special and NOT raised from the dead. I am not of that persuasion)

My bad. My comprehesion level is on low. I blame it on public schooling growing up.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

I was born into a family where everyone was Jehovah's Witnesses. My Aunts Uncles, everyone. I grew up totally believing in God, until I was about 8 or 9. Little things I heard the Elders say or read in the bible, caused me to question then doubt the exsistance of a god. Trust me, we read us some bible I tell ya. We did Sundays, Wednesdays and sold Watchtower magazines all weekend.

At about 10-11 I had serious doubts and by 13 was asked not to come back by my family because they were embarrassed to be associated with 'that kid that wont stop askin questions'. My 'Elders' were not theologists.. They were plumbers and cops and working guys. They had no answers to my questions but I got from them the answers I needed.

I tasted nothing 'sweet' or nourishing spiritually there at the Kingdom Hall. I missed no relationship with any character in the book I spent so much time reading and having read and re-read over and over for 13 years. All most a 40 hr work week of RELIGION! hehehe If I'd only gotten paid.

I became enlightened the moment the door hit me where evolution split me...

lol I don't blame you one bit! I've heard that when a family/person leaves the JW's they are shunned. I'm sure you and your family paid a price for leaving, too.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

the difference seems trivial. Your position is if your "saved" you cant turn atheist. But being "saved" is unscientific and subjective. I could think i was saved, just like you think your saved, and turn atheist, but your response would be "well you weren't really saved" and we cant prove it one way or the other.

Nope...that's not my position at all. I believe that one can be saved as one can get, and still turned away. There are some who would say "well, you weren't really saved"...but that won't be me. I believe any Christian can turn away if they are "sober and vigilant'...

 

[stringmusic]

My bad. My comprehesion level is on low. I blame it on public schooling growing up.

 

[Asath]

“Nope...that's not my position at all.”

What? Yes it is. The OP says very clearly – “Hebrews 6:4 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away....”

So in which sense of the word ‘impossible’ did you not mean it?

You have testimony from non-believers now, in this thread, who were once ‘saved,’ largely as children, similar to just about all believers of my experience. Nobody who is even marginally thoughtful rejects things they know nothing about, so you will likely find among the non-believers a group of folks who know more about the belief system at hand than the ‘believers’ will ever know.

The believers were handed a set of nonsense stories as children, and never looked back. The non-believers examined those stories, and put them to the smell test, and they didn’t smell right, nor add up. So we began looking into them, seeking truth, rather than comfort. For believers to claim superior ‘enlightenment,’ as the OP suggests, puts them in a position of having to demonstrate that such enlightened superiority is true. They cannot.

Not only can they not demonstrate any such thing, but the very history of all beliefs is a history of retreat from earlier positions, and is a history filled with the rationalization of the moment in the face of advancing knowledge. Belief has never advanced, it has retreated, oppressed, demanded, and retrenched time and time again. Facts are facts, truth is truth, while belief is an ever-shifting shadow made entirely of words and violent passions. That is easily demonstrated.

In order to speak of things such as a ‘heavenly gift’ one would first need to show just what that gift consists of, exactly, and one would of needs be required to demonstrate that ‘heaven’ exists. Neither can be done. In order to ‘partake of the Holy Ghost,’ one would again be put in the odd position of putting this imaginary being into some sort of real context, and show that it is not only extant, but is also both ‘Holy,’ and a ‘Ghost.’ Neither can be done. In order to have ‘tasted the good word of God,’ one is once again asked to show that there actually is a God, and that this particular imagined God actually authored any words whatsoever. This also cannot be done.

So it would be inaccurate to say ‘former theist turned atheist’ unless one counts brainwashed children as ‘theists.’ Perhaps there are still some adults who believe in Santa, but mature, rational, and educated minds tend to reject the fully impossible at a certain point, and start asking simpler questions, like, ‘Who wrote this crap, and why are idiots still killing each other over it?’

 

[TheBishop]

‘Who wrote this crap, and why are idiots still killing each other over it?’

 

[applejuice]

“Nope...that's not my position at all.”

What? Yes it is. The OP says very clearly – “Hebrews 6:4 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away....”

So in which sense of the word ‘impossible’ did you not mean it?

You have testimony from non-believers now, in this thread, who were once ‘saved,’ largely as children, similar to just about all believers of my experience. Nobody who is even marginally thoughtful rejects things they know nothing about, so you will likely find among the non-believers a group of folks who know more about the belief system at hand than the ‘believers’ will ever know.

The believers were handed a set of nonsense stories as children, and never looked back. The non-believers examined those stories, and put them to the smell test, and they didn’t smell right, nor add up. So we began looking into them, seeking truth, rather than comfort. For believers to claim superior ‘enlightenment,’ as the OP suggests, puts them in a position of having to demonstrate that such enlightened superiority is true. They cannot.

Not only can they not demonstrate any such thing, but the very history of all beliefs is a history of retreat from earlier positions, and is a history filled with the rationalization of the moment in the face of advancing knowledge. Belief has never advanced, it has retreated, oppressed, demanded, and retrenched time and time again. Facts are facts, truth is truth, while belief is an ever-shifting shadow made entirely of words and violent passions. That is easily demonstrated.

In order to speak of things such as a ‘heavenly gift’ one would first need to show just what that gift consists of, exactly, and one would of needs be required to demonstrate that ‘heaven’ exists. Neither can be done. In order to ‘partake of the Holy Ghost,’ one would again be put in the odd position of putting this imaginary being into some sort of real context, and show that it is not only extant, but is also both ‘Holy,’ and a ‘Ghost.’ Neither can be done. In order to have ‘tasted the good word of God,’ one is once again asked to show that there actually is a God, and that this particular imagined God actually authored any words whatsoever. This also cannot be done.

So it would be inaccurate to say ‘former theist turned atheist’ unless one counts brainwashed children as ‘theists.’ Perhaps there are still some adults who believe in Santa, but mature, rational, and educated minds tend to reject the fully impossible at a certain point, and start asking simpler questions, like, ‘Who wrote this crap, and why are idiots still killing each other over it?’

 

[vowell462]

“Nope...that's not my position at all.”

What? Yes it is. The OP says very clearly – “Hebrews 6:4 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away....”

So in which sense of the word ‘impossible’ did you not mean it?

You have testimony from non-believers now, in this thread, who were once ‘saved,’ largely as children, similar to just about all believers of my experience. Nobody who is even marginally thoughtful rejects things they know nothing about, so you will likely find among the non-believers a group of folks who know more about the belief system at hand than the ‘believers’ will ever know.

The believers were handed a set of nonsense stories as children, and never looked back. The non-believers examined those stories, and put them to the smell test, and they didn’t smell right, nor add up. So we began looking into them, seeking truth, rather than comfort. For believers to claim superior ‘enlightenment,’ as the OP suggests, puts them in a position of having to demonstrate that such enlightened superiority is true. They cannot.

Not only can they not demonstrate any such thing, but the very history of all beliefs is a history of retreat from earlier positions, and is a history filled with the rationalization of the moment in the face of advancing knowledge. Belief has never advanced, it has retreated, oppressed, demanded, and retrenched time and time again. Facts are facts, truth is truth, while belief is an ever-shifting shadow made entirely of words and violent passions. That is easily demonstrated.

In order to speak of things such as a ‘heavenly gift’ one would first need to show just what that gift consists of, exactly, and one would of needs be required to demonstrate that ‘heaven’ exists. Neither can be done. In order to ‘partake of the Holy Ghost,’ one would again be put in the odd position of putting this imaginary being into some sort of real context, and show that it is not only extant, but is also both ‘Holy,’ and a ‘Ghost.’ Neither can be done. In order to have ‘tasted the good word of God,’ one is once again asked to show that there actually is a God, and that this particular imagined God actually authored any words whatsoever. This also cannot be done.

So it would be inaccurate to say ‘former theist turned atheist’ unless one counts brainwashed children as ‘theists.’ Perhaps there are still some adults who believe in Santa, but mature, rational, and educated minds tend to reject the fully impossible at a certain point, and start asking simpler questions, like, ‘Who wrote this crap, and why are idiots still killing each other over it?’

Wow! well written.

 

[stringmusic]

The believers were handed a set of nonsense stories as children, and never looked back. The non-believers examined those stories, and put them to the smell test, and they didn’t smell right, nor add up. So we began looking into them, seeking truth, rather than comfort. For believers to claim superior ‘enlightenment,’ as the OP suggests, puts them in a position of having to demonstrate that such enlightened superiority is true. They cannot.

This suggests that Christians have to be brainwashed as children to believe the stories of the bible to be true, which is rediculous.

There have been many many people throughout history that have come to Christ as fully grown adults with completely logical and rational minds. Who have read the strories and come to the conclusion that the books of the bible are indeed true.

You can stop with your argument that one has to be incompetent to have faith in the holy bible or God. Their are many people that are far superior intelectualy than you or I or anyone on this forum that put their faith in Jesus Christ everyday.

Just because you can't see or feel God doesn't make Him not real or true. I see Him and feel Him everyday and I can't prove it and I don't have to.

 

[bullethead]

This suggests that Christians have to be brainwashed as children to believe the stories of the bible to be true, which is rediculous.

There have been many many people throughout history that have come to Christ as fully grown adults with completely logical and rational minds. Who have read the strories and come to the conclusion that the books of the bible are indeed true.

You can stop with your argument that one has to be incompetent to have faith in the holy bible or God. Their are many people that are far superior intelectualy than you or I or anyone on this forum that put their faith in Jesus Christ everyday.

Just because you can't see or feel God doesn't make Him not real or true. I see Him and feel Him everyday and I can't prove it and I don't have to.

How many have come to Christ without ever have hearing "the story"? Nobody knows the story because they had a late night visit from a God or his Son. On the other hand LOTS of people believe what they read.

 

[stringmusic]

How many have come to Christ without ever have hearing "the story"? Nobody knows the story because they had a late night visit from a God or his Son. On the other hand LOTS of people believe what they read.

You're wrong about that. I have heard Ravi Zacharias speak about this and tell personal stories of people coming to Christ in Muslim countries(where he has been many times) through dreams.

Maybe I can find a link.

http://www.lausanneworldpulse.com/worldreports/595/01-2007?pg=all

 

[bullethead]

You're wrong about that. I have heard Ravi Zacharias speak about this and tell personal stories of people coming to Christ in Muslim countries(where he has been many times) through dreams.

Maybe I can find a link.

http://www.lausanneworldpulse.com/worldreports/595/01-2007?pg=all

String I TOTALLY "get" the point your trying to get across.
But dreams are just that...DREAMS. I have flown, jumped long distances in slow motion, battled the devil, vampires and 'evil-dooers, I know some sort of martial art in various dreams and just last week I'd SWEAR I was back in high school with homework due and could not for the life of me remember the combination to my locker. LUCKILY as I went into class it was actually the parking lot so I drove my '86 Grand National to the Restaurant we have not owned for 15 years now and started to handle the breakfast shift!!! Was it real? Man it sure seemed so at the time! I have also talked to God and Jesus in dreams, Is the rule those dreams involving them are real and the rest are not???

My point is that a large percentage of the followers of Christ in THIS country, especially ones from Christian families have had prior knowledge of "what he was all about" since an early age. If you've found him later I do not think it was the first time you've ever heard of him. My M-I-L is a devout follower of Christ. She is now dying of cancer but Jesus has been her passion for the last 10 years. Before that she hopped between 3 or 4 different churches and denominations and before that not an interest despite sending her 3 children to Catholic school. Before that(before being an adult) she was raised in a Christian family that attended church. She would put most on here to shame with her reciting of scripture . She has found what makes her comfortable. You CANNOT imagine the in depth conversation her and I have had over the years. I'd say her faith is as strong as anyone else I have ever met. It is also a source of where I get a lot of my "material" as far as seeing someone that is intelligent, savvy, and logical about every other aspect of life, all the while oblivious to the three when religion is involved. But....BUT, she was like that each and every time she switched. It was always Jesus, but it was the WAY of whatever denomination she was into at the time. Now when questioned about the others she says" well I have found the RIGHT one now".....

If Jesus can make personal appearances to Muslims and people outside of his Faith and turn their views, it would be no sweat to show to everyone else.

 

[stringmusic]

String I TOTALLY "get" the point your trying to get across.
But dreams are just that...DREAMS. I have flown, jumped long distances in slow motion, battled the devil, vampires and 'evil-dooers, I know some sort of martial art in various dreams and just last week I'd SWEAR I was back in high school with homework due and could not for the life of me remember the combination to my locker. LUCKILY as I went into class it was actually the parking lot so I drove my '86 Grand National to the Restaurant we have not owned for 15 years now and started to handle the breakfast shift!!! Was it real? Man it sure seemed so at the time! I have also talked to God and Jesus in dreams, Is the rule those dreams involving them are real and the rest are not???

I didn't expect you to believe the people and their dreams were from God, my argument was simply that the dreams happened and people gave their lives to Christ because of them.

My point is that a large percentage of the followers of Christ in THIS country, especially ones from Christian families have had prior knowledge of "what he was all about" since an early age. If you've found him later I do not think it was the first time you've ever heard of him. My M-I-L is a devout follower of Christ. She is now dying of cancer but Jesus has been her passion for the last 10 years. Before that she hopped between 3 or 4 different churches and denominations and before that not an interest despite sending her 3 children to Catholic school. Before that(before being an adult) she was raised in a Christian family that attended church. She would put most on here to shame with her reciting of scripture . She has found what makes her comfortable. You CANNOT imagine the in depth conversation her and I have had over the years. I'd say her faith is as strong as anyone else I have ever met. It is also a source of where I get a lot of my "material" as far as seeing someone that is intelligent, savvy, and logical about every other aspect of life, all the while oblivious to the three when religion is involved. But....BUT, she was like that each and every time she switched. It was always Jesus, but it was the WAY of whatever denomination she was into at the time. Now when questioned about the others she says" well I have found the RIGHT one now".....

Thats the problem, following Jesus and His WAY is the only way, not some man made denominations' way. Don't let your MIL's course make any decisions for your course.

If Jesus can make personal appearances to Muslims and people outside of his Faith and turn their views, it would be no sweat to show to everyone else.

It's no sweat I promise you, I imagine God knows who the dreams need to go to and why, and He also knows the people who have the information right under their noses and still deny.

 

[bullethead]

And knows who's been naughty and knows who's been nice.....

 

[Asath]

I believe I said, . . . “and is a history filled with the rationalization of the moment.”

Ready? “ . . . my argument was simply that the dreams happened and people gave their lives to Christ because of them.”

Um? On account of the dreams? Or on account of they believed them? Or on account of what exactly? And, if we might ask, if you admit they were dreams, then what is your point? Our point is rather the same – dreams are hardly a basis for establishing a control-based system, and you’ll be hard-pressed to show that the ‘dreams happened.’ That is sort of a fantasy-based bit of logic, and is completely self-referential. One cannot refer to the fantasy as the source of it’s own authentication. The Bible does not confirm itself simply by having been published – else Aesop’s Fables would have the same authority.

“ . . . following Jesus and His WAY is the only way, not some man made denominations' way.” And this Jesus fella y’all keep going on about? What do you suppose that HIS way actually was? The message we keep getting from y’all is that HIS way is actually YOUR way. But the problem you present is that there are hundreds of disagreements among your own sects concerning just what that WAY might have been. How can that be? Your own Son of your own God forgot to make himself clear? That seems pretty odd. And your own Son of your own God forgot to become literate, and write a single WORD of HIS own? Then why did he bother? Y’all keep squabbling about the WORD, but this fella you go on about never wrote one. Where is the Gospel of Jesus? Got one? You can’t even account, even by assumption, for the first thirty years of the life of this fella you unanimously agree was martyred at the age of thirty-three. You can really, seriously, base your entire life on supposed legends of a supposed Rabbi who conducted a completely undocumented ministry without a single word of his own over a period of three years? And base this on stories written about him not less than two generations later? Then repeated for over two thousand years? Honestly?

I’m unable to summon up that sort of blind credulity, myself.

“ . . . I imagine God knows who the dreams need to go to and why . . . “ Imagination, and dreams, are the basis of the entire fabric of this, and if it works for someone or another, then that is fine for them. The moment a single person is compelled, by one who believes in imagination and dreams, to think as they do at sword-point, and the moment a single person is killed by a believer for the sin of not believing as they do, then my tolerance parts company with your fantasies and dreams.

Oops. That already happened, didn’t it? Until then it is harmless, but y’all crossed that line long ago, and became oppressors. All of you, and all for your own ‘noble’ reasons. Those of you, in the end, that do not stamp each other out over your passionate ‘beliefs’ will end up being stamped out by the rest of us who are becoming increasingly intolerant of this sort of childish nonsense.

 

[Asath]

You see, here’s the problem, in a nutshell –

The Christians are monotheists, and they believe in the God of Abraham – the God of the Old Testament. They believe that this God came down to Earth and magically impregnated one of our Virgins, who spawned the Son of God, and then had that Son executed for some odd reason. From that they made a New Testament. Just with a whole bunch of interpretations.

The Jewish faith, which is also monotheistic, believes in the same God of Abraham, and adheres to the very same Old Testament, but they don’t buy this whole Son of God bit, and still await their true Savior, who is yet to be born. So for them, the New Testament is a bunch of hooey, and the Old Testament is where the truth lies. Just with a whole bunch of interpretations.

The Islamists, who are the last and remaining among the monotheists, ALSO believe in the God of Abraham, and ALSO adhere to the very same Old Testament. Their take on the matter is sort of a compromise position – They say that their own Prophet went up and actually MET Jesus, and his Father, in heaven, and came back with a different message entirely – God wants them to enforce the Old Testament as LAW. Just with a whole bunch of interpretations.

Is anyone seeing a bit of a common thread here? Oversimplified, of course, in the interest of the attention spans of the readers, but a fair take on the matter just the same. Pay attention folks – Every one of you, regardless of your prejudices against each other, devolve to the same source, the same God, and the same dogma. If that fact alone doesn’t stop you cold, and force you to begin asking yourselves some tough questions, then nothing will.

 

[JB0704]

Every one of you, regardless of your prejudices against each other, devolve to the same source, the same God, and the same dogma.

You could have taken it one step further, and probably should have, and included Mormons.

God of Abraham, all that, then some fella meets an angel who says the indians were jews and gives him some gold tablets......

There are two ways of looking at this. Your way, which indicates it is all false. Or, we could think folks are onto something with the God of Abraham and explore the post-Abraham trends on their individual merits.

I think you know Christianity pretty well. Compare it to Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, etc. Then compare each to each other. If the basis of your search is that there is a God of Abraham, then you may be able to take an additional step of faith.

Jesus is not that difficult to believe if there is a God of Abraham.

 

[Asath]

A rational person would have to think.

That seems to be the absent factor in all of this. If the three monotheistic religions all have the very same God as their basis, which they do, and have been killing each other and also killing those within their own groups who ‘interpret’ this God differently, which they clearly have, then all it tends to illuminate is that this God of theirs failed to actually give any of them a singular WORD to follow. The existence of the factions themselves give the lie to their own contentions.

It cannot be argued, by any of the factions, that a GOD, as they wish to describe it, could possibly have failed to make itself clear to its own Creation. There are endless reams of excuses and self-serving justifications, and a trail of blood and bodies that line the hallways of thousands of years of pontificating clerics, but the point is rather obvious – any God that is unable to convey a simple, clear message is flawed. Any being that is flawed cannot be a God, by definition. One small part of the Creation cannot have possibly ‘gotten’ the message, while the rest were left out of that secret. The contention itself is absurd.

And you can forget about the idea of a ‘Son of God’ for that same reason – A ‘God’s’ relationship to his Creation would be rather non-emotional. He would be like a gamer who came in with prior knowledge of the game and armed with a complete set of cheat codes. A God could not lose. Attributing any human characteristic at all to a God is absurd and self-negating. There is no God of Abraham, because there cannot be, by any stretch of logic, and as demonstrated by the blood soaked history of the very idea of the God of Abraham. If this God were real and ‘revealed,’ then what could there possibly be to fight about? Did your God WANT you to keep on killing each other in HIS name?

That truth tends to leave the idea of elevating a relatively unknown ancient militant Rabbi who never wrote a word of his own to the level of Godhood impotent. Folks can continue to devote their lives to trying to demonstrate the truth of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth – the man – and might even someday succeed, but that will never demonstrate the further contention of Divinity. Not for that man, or any other man for whom similar claims are made. I suppose that is where the ‘Faith’ part comes in. You simply have to ‘Believe’ in nonsense in order for nonsense to be true, and clearly the world has no shortage of believers. The problem is that they all believe in different things, and they all believe with murderous passion. Oops.