Highgrading Buck Herds

[Long Cut]

Dr. Bronson Strickland & Steve Demeris of the MSU Deer Lab published a book “Strategic Harvest System” which I found interesting. https://www.msudeer.msstate.edu/strategic-harvest-system.php

Essentially they documented that bucks with the greatest antler potential typically get killed at 2-3YO and bucks with lesser antler potential are allowed to grow older.
So if your club has a 120” minimum and y’all are harvesting a majority of the 2-3YO, your highest potential bucks are removed from the herd. You’re left “managing” the middle tier and bottom tier genetics. But instead, rather focusing on removing some bottom tier bucks at age 3-4, you can free up finite resources (food, habitat) for the top tier bucks.

Now obviously this won’t apply to everyone. Some folks don’t own or have a Co-Op established with neighbors to cover enough land to do so effectively. Some folks don’t care about antler score.

This post is geared towards guys managing their deer herds and trying to grow big deer.

 

[talisman]

Good article but even if your in a coop that doesn't mean everyone else is doing it just because they say they are.

 

[Long Cut]

Good article but even if your in a coop that doesn't mean everyone else is doing it just because they say they are.

I think more people now are beginning to let bucks walk than ever before. People realize GA has potential for 160-200” deer if you put a little effort in.

 

[pjciii]

Ok please dont Jump all over me. If this applies to every other group of animals in nature why wouldn't the same be true with managing your deer herds? Why wouldn't you want your biggest, baddest bucks breeding instead of the unproven or inferior ones.

 

[mallardsx2]

The "old guard" is dying off.

People that found it acceptable to shoot over the limit of bucks and kill spikes are exiting the sport in this state at a pretty good clip. The people who are now filling those spots (mostly the younger generation) want to shoot bigger bucks and they dont want to pay a kings ransom to have to go out of state to do it. Its that simple.
IMHO , that is why you see some counties are starting to see bigger deer. There is still some "Old Guard" where I hunt but their days are limited.

Today, ask 10 hunters if they want to shoot a spike or a 125" 8 point.
8 of them are going to tell you a bigger buck...

25 years ago and beyond, 4 out of 10 would tell you they were looking for a deer for the freezer and didn't care what it was...spike, buck, doe....

Worst decision we ever had as a family who loves to hunt quality bucks was to get a lease next to a Hispanic club in Warren County......Your not growing big bucks on that property next to them, thats for sure. We learned that quickly and exited the stage left.

Makes me happy to see people changing a little bit every year because I'm a horn hunter who passes on young bucks yearly hoping to get them to the next level.

Without some level of cooperation between you and your neighbors (Even if you dont like each other) your only going to have what you have unless you can practice trigger control.

 

[C.Killmaster]

Ok please dont Jump all over me. If this applies to every other group of animals in nature why wouldn't the same be true with managing your deer herds? Why wouldn't you want your biggest, baddest bucks breeding instead of the unproven or inferior ones.

What buck a hunter chooses to kill has zero effect on the genetic make-up of the herd. You simply can't choose which bucks do the breeding in a deer population. This has been scientifically proven.

 

[Long Cut]

Ok please dont Jump all over me. If this applies to every other group of animals in nature why wouldn't the same be true with managing your deer herds? Why wouldn't you want your biggest, baddest bucks breeding instead of the unproven or inferior ones.

You cannot control a wild animal herds genetics. There’s no control over what doe the stud buck breeds, the does genetics, weather conditions (drought, extreme wet year) etc...

People get hung up on genetics when it’s much simpler than that. Just keep the herd density below what your habitat can support.
Wanna get fancy, start managing your bucks and shooting the ones with “inferior” racks.

That’s really it.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Does anybody besides me just deer hunt any more, or is everybody a deer farmer or "manager" trying to turn wild deer into livestock? If I want to manage and control animals, I'll go buy cattle.

 

[Dean]

We have seen first-hand on a 20+ year 'trophy management" lease that as the original post, high grading certainly does occur. In the outset and early years, we implemented a 125" minimum - in those early years we killed 140"-150+" bucks as well as a slew of 125"-130". In hindsight we know some of those 140" were probably the older (4.5 or +) age class, but a major portion of the 125" - 130" class were likely 3.5. We started to see more fully mature bucks that might score 110". About the time trail cameras hit the market and woods we started getting handfuls of bucks that "looked" like a full grown cow but had antlers under 125".....we came to the conclusion that instead of setting a 125" minimum we should key on bucks at least 4.5 or older....and those bucks would score whatever the age, available nutrition, genetics gave that buck. We still have some mature bucks that would score well under 125", but they are now targeted on hitlist when in the early days those bucks would honestly die of old age because they did not meet our club 125" minimum. We found ourselves with a property that had a big group of older age class of bucks - but strictly "antler wise" would be deemed inferior because they didn't meet the 125" min. While we now target buck kills based solely on age, honestly all member by-in in a club lease can still be challenging, especially if we welcome a new member that is antler focused only, heard it many times: "well, I saw XYZ buck, he is fully mature but smaller rack than I am looking for, and hated to burn a tag on him.." That is when the discussion from long time members turns to "well, our experience is that in the longterm doing more harm than good in helping manage our whitetails by not killing that 5.5 ye old 110" buck".
And on the other point, I do think that age as a target strategy for those that want to be involved in that type of property is more mainstream today than many years ago if for no other reason, than older generation now has introduced their children, grandchildren, nephews. nieces etc to that same type strategy. In our club for example, we had many younger hunters (late teens, early to mid-twenties now) that hunted with their parent starting out as 'young ones' sitting with them and 'learned' to age, develop some lessons on letting young bucks walk -- especially that 125" 3.5-year-old. Seems those hunters are now joining clubs that have a like mindset.

 

[catch22]

Does anybody besides me just deer hunt any more, or is everybody a deer farmer or "manager" trying to turn wild deer into livestock? If I want to manage and control animals, I'll go buy cattle.

I hear what your saying. But the OP was pretty clear that this study and the post was geared towards those folks who are trying the manage their herd.

I think Mallard kinda answered your question.....and while I wouldnt have worded it quite like he did.....I think I agree with the premise

My dad is a great example of change. He has more spikes and 3 points hanging in the barn than anyone I ever knew. But he now enjoys targeting an older and more mature deer and trying to kill him. He aint into "killing" like he used to be and as long as he is happy....so am I.

I/we have been fortunate to hunt in areas with a fairly high deer density....so seeing deer is not an issue. Using cameras, we identified 3 deer that we tried to kill based on their age/maturity. We were fortunate to kill 2 of those deer. We passed on younger racked bucks.

I have no issue with someone who just wants to "deer hunt" like you....as long as its legal, then let it rip!! I just think most hunters these days would rather shoot a doe than a 3pt for meat. We let the little guy move on and hope he grows up to be a big one. Same as letting the little trout/bass/catfish go....to maybe catch bigger one.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I hear what your saying. But the OP was pretty clear that this study and the post was geared towards those folks who are trying the manage their herd.

I think Mallard kinda answered your question.....and while I wouldnt have worded it quite like he did.....I think I agree with the premise

My dad is a great example of change. He has more spikes and 3 points hanging in the barn than anyone I ever knew. But he now enjoys targeting an older and more mature deer and trying to kill him. He aint into "killing" like he used to be and as long as he is happy....so am I.

I/we have been fortunate to hunt in areas with a fairly high deer density....so seeing deer is not an issue. Using cameras, we identified 3 deer that we tried to kill based on their age/maturity. We were fortunate to kill 2 of those deer. We passed on younger racked bucks.

I have no issue with someone who just wants to "deer hunt" like you....as long as its legal, then let it rip!! I just think most hunters these days would rather shoot a doe than a 3pt for meat. We let the little guy move on and hope he grows up to be a big one. Same as letting the little trout/bass/catfish go....to maybe catch bigger one.

In most of the areas I hunt, you couldn't hire me to shoot a doe. We need every one of them where the population is low. If I want meat, a young buck is the least important animal to the herd, in most cases.
I do agree with the OP that in some areas, antler restrictions would cause some of the young bucks with the best potential to get killed, while the scrubby ones walk. I don't mount deer heads or measure antlers, but I do enjoy seeing a good buck, so if I am shooting a young buck for meat, I would rather shoot the scrubby spike or messed-up rack one than a nice basket 8 that will probably grow into a good one. In restricted counties, that nice young basket rack might get shot, while the scrubs never do.

As for Mallard's reply, I read that as kind of condescending and hating on folks who aren't trophy hunters as inferior, stupid not- hunters. He may have not meant it that way, but that's how it comes across. I can see and respect both points of view and styles of hunting, as long as the discourse is respectful.

 

[snooker1]

What buck a hunter chooses to kill has zero effect on the genetic make-up of the herd. You simply can't choose which bucks do the breeding in a deer population. This has been scientifically proven.

Doesn't the doe's genetics have something to do with it? Just because 150–200-inch buck breeds with a doe and she produces a buck, there is no guarantee that buck will be of the same mass and size as his father even if he was fed the same diet, correct? Or am I wrong on this.

 

[smoove]

Here we go boys, Do as I do or your doing it wrong. I can here this coming out of D.C. every day.

 

[Sixes]

So you can cull great genetics out of a herd but you cannot cull bad genetics out of a herd.


Makes sense

 

[earlthegoat2]

Every time you kill an animal you also kill it’s individual genetics….

I want the genetics that show how old the deer is in bright letters on both sides of them. Then I wouldn’t have to be a deer expert to shoot the right deer the deer experts tell me to shoot.

 

[ucfireman]

Doesn't the doe's genetics have something to do with it? Just because 150–200-inch buck breeds with a doe and she produces a buck, there is no guarantee that buck will be of the same mass and size as his father even if he was fed the same diet, correct? Or am I wrong on this.

No, its like the abortion debate, the male (father) has no say.

Honestly I've said the same thing for a while. Age and food will get the most out of a deer /herd. Too much variability in genetics.

 

[C.Killmaster]

So you can cull great genetics out of a herd but you cannot cull bad genetics out of a herd.


Makes sense

That's not what the concept is saying, it's saying that the really high scoring young bucks get killed at younger ages and never reach their full potential.

 

[Sixes]

That's not what the concept is saying, it's saying that the really high scoring young bucks get killed at younger ages and never reach their full potential.

I understood the thought process, but I could have saved them a ton of time and money. Common sense prevails in these situations.

If you shoot the youngest bucks with the best potential, they will not be there to get bigger. If you don't shoot the "inferior" racked bucks, they will grow larger inferior racks.

 

[mallardsx2]

As for Mallard's reply, I read that as kind of condescending and hating on folks who aren't trophy hunters as inferior, stupid not- hunters. He may have not meant it that way, but that's how it comes across. I can see and respect both points of view and styles of hunting, as long as the discourse is respectful.

That’s an intense and skewed review of what I wrote.

 

[NCHillbilly]

That’s an intense and skewed review of what I wrote.

I also said that you might not have intended it that way, if you read my post. Just saying that it seems like you are not a fan of non-trophy hunters, and think the world is better off without those "Old Guard" hunters that are killing all "your" bucks before they reach their potential to hang on our wall.

Hint: the doe killers are the ones hurting you more than us "old guard" non-trophy hunters.