I'm doudtful, but uncertain, that we have a record of Calvin saying that, but to the question at hand; what significant distinction is there in Augustin?
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Once Saved Always Saved (added pt 2 post #90)
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Maybe he does. But if he doesn't he is still omniscient and predestines. He had to in order to make his plan happen the way he wanted to to. He used Pharoah for this very purpose and the Jews as well. Read Romans 11.
This double predestination I've never heard of, had to Google it. I'm not sure that there is but one predestination. The one God uses to make his plan happen the way he wants it to. God is in "total" control.
I can see OSAS as not being a part of double predestination nor Calvinism. I know plenty of Protestants that believe that if you are a child of God, you are always a child of God. This not being a part of double predestination in their beliefs.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Many Protestants believe that they themselves are lead to God and have a choice to become a child of God. Once they do become a child of God, God's spirit, lives with their spirit. Thus God wouldn't kick His spirit out of one of His children.
Maybe at the time of salvation, free will ends and predestination takes over in the form of God's spirit living inside us. Perhaps just another one of those mysteries.
Maybe at the time of salvation, free will ends and predestination takes over in the form of God's spirit living inside us. Perhaps just another one of those mysteries.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Reading this which I think is a Catholic doctrine;
Instead predestination is based on the fact that with God there is no time, no change, and He knows everything, including what we will choose before we were ever created. This is a great mystery, but, nevertheless, His predestination includes our human freedom.
My thoughts;
He knows everything, including what we will choose before we were ever created.
Since God knows our choices even before we make them, and David mentions this in Psalms 139, how can we possibly make any other choice?
It's almost like God already knows from Creation who will become His children. How could any person undo what God has already seen? How can God unsave someone who he already seen as being saved? He would have also seen His unsaving that person.
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Spineyman
Senior Member
Do you honestly think you had a choice? If so, why? It is God who chooses us, He quickens us and redeems us from start to finish. The Bible said we are DEAD in our trespasses and sins, and we can not respond in any way shape form or fashion if we are dead. Salvation from beginning to end is of the Lord.
gordon 2
Senior Member
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
So I have no training in law interpretation, but it seems to say that if you knew the ways of the world only and was taken out of it to the ways of God and you chose to get entangled in the world again in a negative way than your worse off than when you only knew the ways of the world where you were basically lost. So you are worse off than being lost, if you were found and saved by grace and then chose to get entangled in the world again. Basically you've returned to the "lost highway" yet knowing the " found highway".
So I have no training in law interpretation, but it seems to say that if you knew the ways of the world only and was taken out of it to the ways of God and you chose to get entangled in the world again in a negative way than your worse off than when you only knew the ways of the world where you were basically lost. So you are worse off than being lost, if you were found and saved by grace and then chose to get entangled in the world again. Basically you've returned to the "lost highway" yet knowing the " found highway".
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Could God choose us an later un-choose us?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Then it may be better for some to have never knew the Lord.
Spineyman
Senior Member
Not possible, He did not choose us for our merit, or worth. He chose us because of His love for us. We don't earn it or work for it. It is simply a free gift. Jesus' priestly prayer in John 17, says that He lost not one that the Father gave Him.. He shed His blood for all those whom He chose from the foundation of the world. I assure you He is able to keep all, not a few, not most but all who He has redeemed. He will not lose one!
Madman
Senior Member
Was Augustin in concert with the doctrine of the church? I think not.
Madman
Senior Member
Paul didn't think so.
Spineyman
Senior Member
That's just it, they never knew the Lord.
Matthew 7:21-23
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
gordon 2
Senior Member
I doubt this. Paradise lost the second time around is a long haul to regain with a grieving heart of flesh---just the guilt alone will be very very difficult to get rid of, not impossible but doubly difficult-- and I say from experience I might add. It's like needing a whole lifetime to know what you got that is such a gift and in one moment you give away your birthright and you got maybe 10-25 yrs left to your lifespan to get over it...and be totally present to anyone.
I think you will like this on both ends:
Augustine is recognized as a saint in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Anglican Communion. He is also a preeminent Catholic Doctor of the Church and the patron of the Augustinians. His memorial is celebrated on 28 August, the day of his death. Augustine is the patron saint of brewers, printers, theologians, and a number of cities and dioceses.[23] Many Protestants, especially Calvinists and Lutherans, consider him one of the theological fathers of the Protestant Reformation due to his teachings on salvation and divine grace.[24][25][26] Protestant Reformers generally, and Martin Luther in particular, held Augustine in preeminence among early Church Fathers. Luther was, from 1505 to 1521, a member of the Order of the Augustinian Eremites.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo
Please remember that our topic is:
We can also move forward in time to a point about 300 yrs. before Calvin where we find this guy and his magnum opus:
The Summa Theologiae (transl. 'Summary of Theology'; publ. 1485, written from 1265–1274; also known as the Summa Theologica or the Summa), as the best-known work of Thomas Aquinas (c. 1225–1274), is a compendium of all of the main theological teachings of the Catholic Church, intended to be an instructional guide for theology students, including seminarians and the literate laity. Presenting the reasoning for almost all points of Christian theology in the West, topics of the Summa follow the following cycle: God; Creation, Man; Man's purpose; Christ; the Sacraments; and back to God.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Theologica
You will want to look at the First Book, Question 23, and not fail to follow his reference to other questions for background and clearity.
I sure hope my computer parts get here soon ... and that my diagnosis is correct. At least I 'll have some of my resourses available on one machine.
Israel
BANNED
This is a hard place to negotiate...suffering...and torment.
There's suffering...against which none of us who believe are "warned against"...for there are ample to be found...and even with encouragements to embrace. To not despise. To endure with...joy. And there's also, in the Lord's sufferings the ministry of the Holy Spirit's comforts to be found, they are real, they are true, they are promised, and they are eternal.
I am not wise enough to know whether I can make any sense here.
There's stuff the Lord tells us, warns us to, and warns us against...quite plainly "do this"..."don't do that". Or don't think a certain way. "Don't be like the hypocrites" Matt 6:5.
But then...there are those places he just speaks a parable...(which are no less for our learning)...but in which there is no clear "do this" or "don't do this"...He tells a story and tells what happens.
Think of the parable of the guy forgiven a huge debt by the King who refuses to forgive his debtor.
Jesus doesn't say "don't do that" or don't be "that guy"...he just tells what happens. In one way it would seem obvious though, right? Jesus it seems doesn't have to say..."don't do that" cause the whole of the parable should be a clear warning of "how to be" and "how not to be".
Or take the parable of what we call the good Samaritan. Jesus ends it by asking "who was the neighbor"...like it should be obvious. But here's the hook so to speak...if we believe "it's obvious"...then we should be like that. So, in one sense Jesus just speaks to what we say we already know...but if we do...why don't we do it?
And that's the point...when we don't do what we make claim of knowing...the consequences are quite different than "suffering as a christian"...
For suffering as a hypocrite is something else...it's really tormenting. So the guy who didn't forgive the guy that owed him 5$ after being forgiven a debt of a million...well, he gets turned over to the tormentors. And he will not "come out" (that's important) till he has paid the uttermost farthing. Jesus doesn't say he's condemned forever (that's important)...but that something is going to be extracted by the tormentors till he has paid his due.
That guy...knows what it feels like to wish he'd never been born...the suffering without comfort, the suffering without anything but "I know I deserve this and can't find a plea"...is all of different.
Now...please hear this. And please, if you are able...hear it well.
If it is for God's purpose in his will that this guy make it to the uttermost farthing...and is released...he will be able to tell others with conviction...choose the Lord's suffering in mercy...cause you don't want the other kind...of being a hypocrite.
He will have the conviction of experience...knowing torment is a real thing...a suffering with no comfort, a suffering in which one wishes they were never born...so complete in painfully right abasing...that anything is better than it.
This is basically my testimony. I have offended "little ones" I have been a hypocrite...boasting of what I know of the Lord...yet denying by practice. I have tasted (even if it be the tiniest bit!) of God's judgment upon hypocrites and the malicious...and could not bear it...such misery is far beyond anything I have ever known...and fear?(!!!!)
Fear that wraps a cold hand around the heart to terror of tasting eternal isolation...so that longing for even the company of "an enemy" there is comfort...not even dare hope for a friendly face...just...anything...anyone...once in prior...even despised. Just return me to, or by whatever means or fashion...out of solitary. Out from being all locked up to myself...alone. (Oh the foolish man that thinks he will just share a beer with the Devil...) For there is no "fellowship" in that experience...at all.
I know this can sound like boast "I know how terrible the Lord's dealings can be". God help me if it is...for such "boasting" will only deliver me to more. No, I will boast instead of mercy to such a one...malicious, cunning, clever, hypocrite, betrayer, who for no reason other than mercy...is able to say...God is merciful to the most wicked of us all.
No, I didn't pay "enough". No, I didn't find out I had the million hidden somewhere that I was able to come up with to discharge my debt. Someone...just appeared when I had no right of expectation (and knew it) to spring me.
Oh, the millstone around my neck was taking me down...and I knew it was right and just for it to be doing so...I had "earned" every bit of it. I knew I had no right to even pray. I didn't even have air to do it. Thought to even make it appear a thing to do. Just terror. Earned...terror.
But...someone showed up. In a place that was all not fit for Him...but He showed up.
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Israel
BANNED
yes. powerful testimony.
Israel
BANNED
Amen.
If anything would, if anything can, if anything would be so deceived to believe it might make of gift what is not gift, to turn as it were, liberty into a form of bondage, light into some shading, truth into "not all true", the Lord's very life as burden to be sorrowfully borne...the prescription for such remains always Jesus Christ.
We do not deny suffering...but never as the end in itself. Nor even the experience of feeling pressed, burdened even...yet the single hallmark of all, the bedrock foundation of our faith always remains the resurrection of Jesus Christ out from the dead. No wonder it is so assaulted!
Even in our own minds when sufferings seem unbearable and nothing else seems "present" but their reality to us...when we feel ourselves coming apart at the seams and all seems a swirl as in the fiercest storm...our testimony (God help me here to not be a sower of doubt) that...even as it appears to us we are questioning in ourselves "did that really happen? Did a righteous man rise from the dead to my salvation, is this the true thing?"
I am persuaded (and God help me!) that such fundamental question...which to ourselves may appear as doubt, and may seem the most unbearable estate...to God, and of God...is heard as plea. What we may perceive as shameful doubt, (but God knows we can't help ourselves!) He is eager to answer! He desires to show His son's vindication to all by the resurrection! He longs for the singleness of heart that KNOWS...this alone is the question of all questions that truly matter! "What do you think of your SON?" (Even if not phrased that way...or even know as we call out into what appears the emptiness...for that is the substance of what the resurrection is...God's answer to all our question of what appears...empty...hopeless...void...)
Things so whittle us down at times to where we know...as God knows (and waits)...when all else of comfort, trust, hope, joy, peace appears absent...but we are then moved to "our fundament" touching that place of singleness where nothing at all else matters except this one thing..."did Christ rise?"...God is not ashamed of our asking! And I know this seems like I am promoting doubt, or doubts, and to what sees it like that I know I have no explanation.
But I will testify this is where God may move us...he wants us to ask the only single question that is of any consequence...so that HE can ANSWER! This place...this experience of desolation to where it seems all is lost...even our faith to us...is for our ESTABLISHING.
God help me, I don't want to maneuver anyone to desolation, I don't want to "try" any ones confession...but I will testify...our confession is tried, and tried to such extent that it seems to go beyond any and everything of the "else" in which we may have been living.
And again...God help me...it is not to "make less" of the scriptures...it is not to make less of the precious lives of God's saints who have gone before and given testimony...nor even present "mentors" and Holy men who share from their hearts the love of God with us. But it is the place where God alone...assures...the place beyond "well I believe it because it is in the Bible" or "I believe it because someone I love and respect recommends this to me"...but because God Himself has secured this testimony to me...Jesus Christ is alive!
In truth...I am convinced it is only after such, or through such...we really do begin to appreciate the Bible, the testimonies of those before, love the "present ones". see in some form...how this is beyond all else. God WANTS to convince us! That our faith rest in, and on Him alone. "This is the work of God...that you believe upon Him whom He has sent!" This is God's work...to convince us of the glory of Jesus Christ!
I know in spirit how to some this will seem "he makes less of the scriptures testimony as insufficient"...NO, NO, NO, a billion times NO!
Believing the scriptures will bring us to this place!
Look at what Paul wrote. He faced the question squarely. Do you think he did this because it just "came to him" to ask it while he wrote? Like God said "Hey, this will be a good thing to include in your letter!"
No! Paul in following testifies he came to a place of being pressed beyond measure...to even despair of life. "But God who raises the dead" appeared there. Paul knew this was the only matter that matters...and so when he writes about the resurrection he's not afraid to put it as plainly and (almost heretically if one does not have the ear) "If Christ is not risen then your faith is in vain"...THIS! THIS! THIS! is it. This must be settled in the heart! This is the only matter to be answered. "Is Christ risen?"
All else...miracles, wonderful teachings, expressions of compassion and love...all else pales...for our faith rests on this one thing! Is it a wonder then...that we get whittled down to that one thing...where we ask once, perhaps the only place of true nakedness apart from our ability to hold a disposition in the matter ("I believe in Christ because he was so good" or "I believe in Christ because He makes perfect sense" or "I believe in Christ because he says that he will do a wonderful thing for me...save me!")
No. It all hinges on a thing apart from our disposition to it...it either is true...or it is not.
We even may get past the "place" of wanting it to be true...where the "Need to know"...consumes even wishful thinking completely!
God help me, I accuse no one of wishful thinking. But I have seen such a disposition in myself...a bent toward a thing (of whatever constitution) simply because I want it to be so. God may have had to deal with me in ways others may never need. But when I see how much I have based pursuits and life upon that were just formed of "my preference" and their unutterably grievous consequences...I, of all men...need the assurance that no one else can give me...Jesus is alive...not because I have made Him so, not because I hope it's so...but that something is true...totally apart from my own perspective of preference.
What do I ultimately mean? I have found God's desire to show Jesus Christ so exceeds my desire to know, even in all my "need to know" as experienced (which has never been despised) BUT...is never sufficient to "make Him appear". God has come to me in all despairing of even caring to know...a place where I have been so convinced nothing I know is of any value there...this is where God has visited me. A place where I do not even care to say "all I see is emptiness".
Do you think I have not been surprised? Surprised God would appear there? Surprised that what "I thought I knew" about holding "to the faith"...never wavering in confession, holding to championing always and at every moment...that there, where I seem to have no care at all as to next breath...empty...barren, desolate...I would be made to see the One willing to sit in the dust with me!
Y-y-y-you're here! I mean like...even here! I mean like really here!
We are in this tent always about communing with the unseen. We make the common error of thinking...what we see is the real...and what and who we don't is something less than that. But in such, or after such experience...we come to realize...especially when communing amongst those we do see...our appeal is now to who they really are...the unseen One. When we approach each other (or as men even approach our wives whom we believe we "really know")...we come to learn a thing. There's a person there we really don't see...and the things we have seen that have led us to believe we "know them" so thoroughly (because we can "see them") are so easily turned to a truth if need be, and as need be.
Sometimes even painfully. But...it works.
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Madman
Senior Member
This is all about predestination not OSAS.
StriperAddict
Senior Member
"Life is a gift. Each one of us is unique, known by name, and loved by the One who fashioned us. Unfortunately, there is a very loud, consistent, and powerful message coming to us from our world that leads us to believe that we must prove our belovedness by how we look, by what we have, and by what we can accomplish. We become preoccupied with “making it” in this life, and we are very slow to grasp the liberating truth of our origins and our finality. We need to hear the message announced and the message emboldened over and over again. Only then do we find the courage to claim it and live from it."
Henri Nouwen
Henri Nouwen
It responds to your question about Augustin with a cherry (Thomas) on top.
To what do you refer by "this"?
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