Culling with intent to improve genetics

GottaGetOutdoors

Senior Member
Research does not support culling. There is a considerable amount of peer-reviewed research on culling. Conclusions support the position that culling simply does not work in free range deer herds. Killing Ol’ 5x1 may make you feel like you contributed to herd improvement, but his absence will not move the genetics needle. Here is what we know:

1. Culling is more subjective than objective. There is a saying that a weed is nothing but a plant growing where it is not wanted. Can you name five visible traits that make a buck genetically inferior? Try asking 100 hunters to define “cull” buck. You will get about 100 answers, and almost none backed by science. One man’s cull is another man’s trophy. I’ve been on Texas ranches where a buck is culled if less than 10 points at age 2.5. Another ranch culled any mature buck with less than 6” brow tines. Big difference between a buck that is genetically “inferior” and a buck that is personally “undesirable.” Culling based on personal preferences is granting a license to kill with no science to back it up. In my experience, hunters use it as a get-out-of-jail-card for making a questionable kill.

2. Case of mistaken identity. We all know stories of a buck with messed up rack. ‘Old 5x1’ has 5 typical points on one side and a spike on the other. Or some kind of deformed antler on one side. Research shows this is often due to injury - on the opposite side from the deformed antler - and will self-correct in future years. But even if Ol’ 5x1 buck’s antler pedicle injury is permanent and he bears the same weird rack YOY, he may in fact possess superior genetics and could sire the next state record.

2. The doe contributes over 50% of a buck fawn's DNA - including his antler traits. To measurably improve herd genetics, it is necessary to cull genetically inferior does too. So now imagine how unfeasible it is to identify and cull "inferior" bucks and "inferior" does.

3. Culling can work when you control selective breeding, such as in breeder pens to mate a specific buck (known pedigree) with a specific doe (known pedigree). Impossible in the wild. Consider the number of breeding age does and bucks at the herd level. No way to selectively pair a specific buck and doe in a free-range herd. No way to control breeding of bucks with desired antler characteristics. And no way to identify a doe with those same desired antler characteristics. Likewise, it is unfeasible to expect that culling a single animal can remove what is believed to be an undesirable genetic trait.

4. Genetic traits can skip a generation. We all know a tall couple who have short kids and a short couple with tall kids. Maybe you have twins in your family that occur every other generation. Point is, the buck you've identified as a cull may carry superior buck traits that will be expressed in his progeny.

Here's what you can do to improve your herd. Set reasonable expectations for what management can accomplish in your area. Focus your dollars and energy on improving habitat, improving doe-to-buck ratio, protecting underage bucks, increasing fawn survival, controlling nuisance animals, and reducing hunting pressure. Accept that genetics are a fixed part of the equation that you cannot change. Ignore the gimmick peddlers who suggest otherwise. There is absolutely zero chance that genetics are improved by killing a buck that someone deems inferior.

Enjoy managing what you have. It's fine to take deer management seriously as many of us do. Just be careful to never regulate the fun out of hunting.
 
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buckpasser

Senior Member
I say the same thing every time one of these threads appear. I completely agree that you can’t sway genetics considerably or even noticeably by “culling” bucks. Culling for me, is an individual deer removal intended to effect only as much as not seeing the “culled” buck again.

For example, a 2.5 year old buck breaks his leg while chasing. He will likely never be a desirable trophy buck. Bang! A buck suffers a major pedicle injury fighting and will never grow another uniform rack. Bang! A 3.5 year old short tined bully that will potentially run better bucks off of the habitat I hunt. Bang! Studies have shown that genetics can’t be improved by culling, but after I shoot bucks I don’t want through the lungs they are never an issue again.
 
I say the same thing every time one of these threads appear. I completely agree that you can’t sway genetics considerably or even noticeably by “culling” bucks. Culling for me, is an individual deer removal intended to effect only as much as not seeing the “culled” buck again.

For example, a 2.5 year old buck breaks his leg while chasing. He will likely never be a desirable trophy buck. Bang! A buck suffers a major pedicle injury fighting and will never grow another uniform rack. Bang! A 3.5 year old short tined bully that will potentially run better bucks off of the habitat I hunt. Bang! Studies have shown that genetics can’t be improved by culling, but after I shoot bucks I don’t want through the lungs they are never an issue again.

PERZACKLY!!
 

PopPop

Gone But Not Forgotten
We have a genetic trait in our herd that produces bucks with a rack on the right side and a spike and brow tine on the other. Been that way for years. I save them for those guest who say they just want some meat. It’s better than shooting a doe and it saves the good racks for me. Letting young six and eight point bucks walk is a sound management policy, letting Does walk is also a sound management policy on our range.
Be safe, be legal, be smart and have fun.
 

mguthrie

**# 1 Fan**OHIO STATE**
How does protecting "under age bucks" improve the heard? What do you consider an under age buck?
That's up to the individual. I consider under the age of 4 1/2 undersage. Some trophy ranchs wont let you shoot a buck until they're 6-7 years old.
 
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Jim Boyd

Senior Member
I have found that culling is often just an excuse to shoot a buck that the hunter DID see from the stand.

Already in the replies, I see some “justification” popping up.

In SC on our farms, we do not practice culling in any manner.

Illinois has it down pat (as do other states) - you want to cull a buck?? Fine, go ahead and do so and that is it for you this year, other than doe hunting.

Expecting the masses to understand and embrace what is generally an accepted process - when it does not meet their personal agenda - is sure to be an impossibility.


Great OP post!
 

jmac7469

Senior Member
I think the word cull has done as much to hurt hunting as the television shows have. It's a complete farce to believe you can actually cull for genetics in a wild deer heard. If you want to improve the herd, you need to improve food and habitat and practice a little trigger control. You do those 3 things and you will see the best the land and genetics have to offer.
 

shdw633

Senior Member
So what's better for the herd.....Shooting two does for meat or one sub par buck that would produce nearly the same amount of meat? To me, the sub par buck brings nothing for the herd but take up space and resources....the does bring years of new potential.
 

delacroix

BANNED
We have a responsibility to take aged and infirm animals. Promoting senescence for bucks on the chance they might sprout large antlers before dying by disease or predator is ethically wrong.
 

tbrown913

Senior Member
So what's better for the herd.....Shooting two does for meat or one sub par buck that would produce nearly the same amount of meat? To me, the sub par buck brings nothing for the herd but take up space and resources....the does bring years of new potential.

Check out the study that was done by growing deer TV and I think Mississippi state on genetics. They did a pretty good test where they captured wild deer from a few dozen places in the state based on historic antler/body weights info. They kept the deer from each area together, but fed them all the same controlled diet. 2 generations later the difference in antler size and weight was gone.

If you have an old buck with a small rack, it's most likely because of poor nutrition throughout his life, and his parents life, and so on. So, technically, killing the 2 does would mean more available food for the other deer, which will help in years to come.

I hunt on land that was not hunted for about 15 years before I started. The herd was massively overpopulated. For the first 6 years I killed at least 8 does a year, twice killing 10. In the first 6 years, i had 2 trail cam pictures of nice mature bucks, and never saw one from the stand. On year 7 i killed an old buck. Live weight i would guess was 200 pounds. He had a 15" inside spread, and bases were so big around i couldn't touch fingers together. I also killed 7 does that year, and a second hunter started hunting and killed 3 deer. Years 8 and 9 i killed 5 and 6 does, and the other hunter killed a spike and doe, and two spikes. Year 10 i killed a 17" inside 8, followed by a 16" inside 10 on opening morning. I killed 3 more does, and the other hunter killed 1. Years 11 and 12 there were 4 deer killed total since i moved further away and didnt hunt but two weekends a year. This year is year 13. I live in town again. I saw at least 2 deer every hunt during bow season except 1 where i was skunked. Opening of doe days was incredible. I saw 6 does, one 8 with a 15" inside, killed a beautiful 10 that had dual beams on one side from a pedicle injury, and saw a 10 that still keeps me up at night! The herd is now managed in numbers. I likely wont shoot a doe here this year, and the other hunter hasn't seen a deer from his stand this year. (He also only hunts from 1 stand, doesnt understand wind direction or scent control, and can only hunt about 3 times a month.) All the deer I've seen look bigger, not emaciated, and trail cam pics havent dropped off. Oh, and I only hunt 80 acres, with no food plots, about a dozen white oaks on 10 acres and none on the rest, and only a couple pin oaks on the back line. I wish I could put in some clover or something for them. I'd probably have a wall full of mounts in a few years instead of averaging 1 every 4 years.
 

GottaGetOutdoors

Senior Member
How does protecting "under age bucks" improve the heard? What do you consider an under age buck?

QDM works to improve herd composition (ratio of does, bucks, fawns) and age structure (# of immature vs. adult does, # of bucks in each age class.). Protecting immature bucks helps achieve a healthier distribution of bucks at age 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, 5.5, etc.
 
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shdw633

Senior Member
Check out the study that was done by growing deer TV and I think Mississippi state on genetics. They did a pretty good test where they captured wild deer from a few dozen places in the state based on historic antler/body weights info. They kept the deer from each area together, but fed them all the same controlled diet. 2 generations later the difference in antler size and weight was gone.

If you have an old buck with a small rack, it's most likely because of poor nutrition throughout his life, and his parents life, and so on. So, technically, killing the 2 does would mean more available food for the other deer, which will help in years to come.

I hunt on land that was not hunted for about 15 years before I started. The herd was massively overpopulated. For the first 6 years I killed at least 8 does a year, twice killing 10. In the first 6 years, i had 2 trail cam pictures of nice mature bucks, and never saw one from the stand. On year 7 i killed an old buck. Live weight i would guess was 200 pounds. He had a 15" inside spread, and bases were so big around i couldn't touch fingers together. I also killed 7 does that year, and a second hunter started hunting and killed 3 deer. Years 8 and 9 i killed 5 and 6 does, and the other hunter killed a spike and doe, and two spikes. Year 10 i killed a 17" inside 8, followed by a 16" inside 10 on opening morning. I killed 3 more does, and the other hunter killed 1. Years 11 and 12 there were 4 deer killed total since i moved further away and didnt hunt but two weekends a year. This year is year 13. I live in town again. I saw at least 2 deer every hunt during bow season except 1 where i was skunked. Opening of doe days was incredible. I saw 6 does, one 8 with a 15" inside, killed a beautiful 10 that had dual beams on one side from a pedicle injury, and saw a 10 that still keeps me up at night! The herd is now managed in numbers. I likely wont shoot a doe here this year, and the other hunter hasn't seen a deer from his stand this year. (He also only hunts from 1 stand, doesnt understand wind direction or scent control, and can only hunt about 3 times a month.) All the deer I've seen look bigger, not emaciated, and trail cam pics havent dropped off. Oh, and I only hunt 80 acres, with no food plots, about a dozen white oaks on 10 acres and none on the rest, and only a couple pin oaks on the back line. I wish I could put in some clover or something for them. I'd probably have a wall full of mounts in a few years instead of averaging 1 every 4 years.

Deer don't live in controlled environments so those studies have little meaning to me. What would have happened to those deer had an equal amount of does of all maturity levels been put in with them. I have seen does chase immature and small antlered bucks off food for their offspring, making an even better argument for taking sub par bucks out of the herd to allow the stronger bucks to reach the levels that many hunters are looking for. I am all for letting up and comers grow and get older, don't misunderstand me; however, I have hunted long enough to see does be looked at as sacred cows due to their ability to continue spreading the seed; to be deemed as disposable to those who feel it's better to kill them for the sake of antler size, neither of which is in regard to the management or health of the herd. This has all taken place in just the last 20 to 25 years thanks mainly to what we see on TV and read in magazines. Fortunately, that's not what the biologists that are responsible for the herd is paying attention too!!
 

Jim Boyd

Senior Member
By all means let’s justify our actions!!!!!
 

glynr329

Senior Member
The only way it would make a difference is everyone you take out is add a buck with great genes. So if that is your plan go for it. Besides how many of us are expert at judging what is bad. Maybe he had a bad year. High protein food was terrible. Just saying
 

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