Is this the Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics section

[WaltL1]

[QUOTE
Absolute morality comes from The Creator, The sovereign God. Without morality being defined by God, all morality is relative. When you boil it all down, It's decided upon by who has the most powerful military.

Absolute morality comes from The Creator, The sovereign God. Without morality being defined by God, all morality is relative.

Yes that would be your individual and your group's (Christianity) opinion/philosophy. Just like I said.
And even that changes with the times.

 

[Ray357]

Yes that would be your individual and your group's (Christianity) opinion/philosophy. Just like I said.
And even that changes with the times.

Without God,bthere is no absolute morality. We can agree on that. Without absolute morality, might makes right. There is no true morality.

 

[WaltL1]

I am probably more agnostic than anything, I was raised Catholic and my family are all practicing Catholics.

I keep a light finger on the goings on with the church more out of tradition than spirituality.

I have zero problems with Christians, in fact I probably get along better with Christians than atheists.

My son attends Sunday school (on Saturday) every week and I actively encourage it; I want him to come to his own conclusions as I was afforded the same opportunity, I would never dream of denying him experiencing Christianity.

The atheists in this sub are some of the most open minded and polite people I've encountered.

There are some real atheist pills out their that I do not wish to associate with.

And Walt keeps a nice music thread going, so there's that too.

There are some real atheist pills out their that I do not wish to associate with.

We've chased more than one of those pills out of here over the years. They only come to insult and couldnt hold an intelligent discussion/debate to save their lives. Or maybe they could but they didnt come here for that.

I was raised Catholic and my family are all practicing Catholics.

Same here.

 

[WaltL1]

Without God,bthere is no absolute morality. We can agree on that. Without absolute morality, might makes right. There is no true morality.

Without God, there is no absolute morality.

I can agree with that.
Of course you would have to prove there is a God to prove there are absolute morals.

 

[Ray357]

I can agree with that.
Of course you would have to prove there is a God to prove there are absolute morals.

Why? That would be an absolute statement which comes from absolute truth. Without absolute truth, which philosophers have forever entwined with absolute morality, there is no need to prove anything. Absolutes do not exist in post modern philosophy. We can either have absolutes or we can't.you are asking for a proof. Proof defies postmodernism because it establishes absolute truth.

 

[WaltL1]

Why? That would be an absolute statement which comes from absolute truth. Without absolute truth, which philosophers have forever entwined with absolute morality, there is no need to prove anything. Absolutes do not exist in post modern philosophy. We can either have absolutes or we can't.you are asking for a proof. Proof defies postmodernism because it establishes absolute truth.

1st -
Im not asking for proof of anything. There is no proof, other than what an individual believes is proof, of God or any gods.
2nd -
Way back up there in the beginning you said -

Without absolute morals, there is no right and there is no wrong.

And that those absolute morals come from the Creator/God.
Soooo, for there to be absolute morals, there would have to be proof there is God.
If you can't prove there is a God, you cant prove there are absolute morals.
And that would make what Bullet said in post #13 accurate.
3rd -
All that postmodernism stuff is just gobbledygook to me. Its just another type of philosophy.

 

[Ray357]

1st -
Im not asking for proof of anything. There is no proof, other than what an individual believes is proof, of God or any gods.
2nd -
Way back up there in the beginning you said -

And that those absolute morals come from the Creator/God.
Soooo, for there to be absolute morals, there would have to be proof there is God.
If you can't prove there is a God, you cant prove there are absolute morals.
And that would make what Bullet said in post #13 accurate.
3rd -
All that postmodernism stuff is just gobbledygook to me. Its just another type of philosophy.

I think that's what I said.

 

[bullethead]

[QUOTE
Absolute morality comes from The Creator, The sovereign God. Without morality being defined by God, all morality is relative. When you boil it all down, It's decided upon by who has the most powerful military.

Well, that is not an exclusive club. There are lots of "creators " credited for such things.

 

[Ray357]

Well, that is not an exclusive club. There are lots of "creators " credited for such things.

Lots of gods. One Creator God.

 

[WaltL1]

I think that's what I said.

If thats what you said, I misunderstood. My bad.

 

[WaltL1]

Lots of gods. One Creator God.

Ive got to ask -
You do realize thats just your opinion/belief and not an established fact right?

 

[Ray357]

Ive got to ask -
You do realize thats just your opinion/belief and not an established fact right?

Yes. If I could prove my belief, we would not be having this conversation and if you could prove yours we would not be having it.

 

[ky55]

Yes. If I could prove my belief, we would not be having this conversation and if you could prove yours we would not be having it.

What does Walt need to prove?

 

[WaltL1]

Yes. If I could prove my belief, we would not be having this conversation and if you could prove yours we would not be having it.

Ok good. I'm just trying to get a baseline of how honest we are being here.
And my belief is that it is not an established fact that there is a God or gods. So the default is that there isnt and arent.
No more, no less.

 

[bullethead]

Lots of gods. One Creator God.

You are making assertions. Anyone can literally say anything. The next step is to back up such statements with proof which turns what you assert into fact.
When you admit that you cannot prove anything that you say is anything other than wishful thinking, indoctrination, and a feeling or belief then you are not spreading the word you are telling tall tales.
If something is the Ultimate Truth why can't anyone show it, prove it or have it agreed upon universally by everyone?
What you are saying is the equivalent of touting your own favorite sports team, athlete, food, vehicle manufacturer, fishing line preferences or dog breed and telling everyone else that what you like or use is "the best" and you provide no proof other than just saying it. Cases could be made about the things mentioned above and examples of each could be provided along with evidence in order to make a good argument as to why one may or may not be the best.
But, when someone wants to talk god(s) , Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence and all anyone has to do to put the argument to rest is to back up what they claim and assert with facts and evidence. It should not be hard to do if in fact it has any truth to it whatsoever.

You are telling us what the color gray smells like and are expecting us to believe what your guess is to be true just because.

 

[bullethead]

Yes. If I could prove my belief, we would not be having this conversation and if you could prove yours we would not be having it.

So are you here to make proclamations about what you believe or are you here to prove what you believe is true?
Walt isn't stating anything as fact. He is not making a "belief" claim. He is asking you (or anyone) if it is possible to be able to back up what is claimed with evidence. "We" aren't claiming Bigfoot exists and can do this, has done that and is the sole source of morals, decency and all that wonderful. We would first have to establish Bigfoot existed and THEN provide evidence that all those other things are a result of his doing. A person just cannot assert " Bigfoot is responsible for Buicks...buicks exist, therefore Bigfoot exits" which is what you are doing with a god.

 

[bullethead]

Why? That would be an absolute statement which comes from absolute truth. Without absolute truth, which philosophers have forever entwined with absolute morality, there is no need to prove anything. Absolutes do not exist in post modern philosophy. We can either have absolutes or we can't.you are asking for a proof. Proof defies postmodernism because it establishes absolute truth.

Shouldn't a god of any merit(I mean that's why a god would be worthy of being a god) be able to provide undeniable and unquestionable absolute truth no matter what "ism" of society is in favor at the moment?

 

[WaltL1]

So are you here to make proclamations about what you believe or are you here to prove what you believe is true?
Walt isn't stating anything as fact. He is not making a "belief" claim. He is asking you (or anyone) if it is possible to be able to back up what is claimed with evidence. "We" aren't claiming Bigfoot exists and can do this, has done that and is the sole source of morals, decency and all that wonderful. We would first have to establish Bigfoot existed and THEN provide evidence that all those other things are a result of his doing. A person just cannot assert " Bigfoot is responsible for Buicks...buicks exist, therefore Bigfoot exits" which is what you are doing with a god.

Yep proving God or a god exists is just the first step. Its a great start but
then you have to prove the god is what men claim it to be, has done, will do, etc. etc.
Proving God or a god exists only proves just that, not the story that goes along with it.

 

[WaltL1]

I am probably more agnostic than anything, I was raised Catholic and my family are all practicing Catholics.

I keep a light finger on the goings on with the church more out of tradition than spirituality.

I have zero problems with Christians, in fact I probably get along better with Christians than atheists.

My son attends Sunday school (on Saturday) every week and I actively encourage it; I want him to come to his own conclusions as I was afforded the same opportunity, I would never dream of denying him experiencing Christianity.

The atheists in this sub are some of the most open minded and polite people I've encountered.

There are some real atheist pills out their that I do not wish to associate with.

And Walt keeps a nice music thread going, so there's that too.

My son attends Sunday school (on Saturday) every week

Man I used to HATE going to Catechism as a kid. Beautiful Saturday morning, all I wanted to do was go fishing, climbing trees, playing in the river etc.
The only thing that made it bearable was all my friends had to go to Catechism too.

 

[Spotlite]

I'm an Atheist and have been lurking this section for a while now. Because there are 4 other sections where folks can proclaim their faith, I thought this was one to find others that share my belief (or lack there of). After viewing a hundred threads and hundreds of posts, I found that 95% appear to be those trying to convince Atheists, etc., to convert to their religion, aka christianity.

One thread in particular, "Atheist Church" was quite misleading. To me, these "churches" are trying to do what other religious believers do. Try to influence people to a single individual's belief(s). In this section, I hoped to meet folks here that are Atheists and how it relates to them in the shooting industry.

Hopefully on here we can keep it real. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I've left or been kicked out of countless forums because of who I am so we'll see.

Actually if you’d dig deeper you’d found that thread to be on topic instead of misleading. As older threads here have comments that Atheism is not a religious group or have a set of guidelines to go by. In was mostly questioning are they be attempting to do that.

And, sometimes you just have to post stuff to get a conversation started. It’s get stagnant for a while, then it’ll heat up a while, etc.