When the Messiah returns...

[jollyroger]

...how will Christianity respond?

How would you know it is Him and not a charlatan proclaiming to be Him (there could be many)?

Do you think it is in the best interest of the church to have the Messiah return with all of the power and influence they have consolidated?

I know there are many different offshoots of Christianity, some believe the literal word while others take a "read between the lines" approach.

Some say their will be signs so they will know, but what if you are not one of those.

This is meant to be a respectful thought experiment, not intended to provoke or offend.

I've often thought about this stuff myself and wondered what some others think.

 

[WaltL1]

Christianity has alot riding on what they claim will and wont happen upon His return.
What would happen if He showed up and said "Hey just checking in. Gotta go now, catch you later".
There might be some 'splainin to do.

And of course there is also the belief of some in Christianity that He has already returned.

 

[Spotlite]

Because it’s not a meet and greet at corner, or at the chapel at a given time. Christians believe that the same spirit that raised Jesus will also raise them and, they’ll be called to gather together to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[bullethead]

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
https://www.jewsforjudaism.org/know...tionq-mean-in-matthew-24-mark-13-and-luke-21/

 

[SemperFiDawg]

...how will Christianity respond?

How would you know it is Him and not a charlatan proclaiming to be Him (there could be many)?

Do you think it is in the best interest of the church to have the Messiah return with all of the power and influence they have consolidated?

I know there are many different offshoots of Christianity, some believe the literal word while others take a "read between the lines" approach.

Some say their will be signs so they will know, but what if you are not one of those.

This is meant to be a respectful thought experiment, not intended to provoke or offend.

I've often thought about this stuff myself and wondered what some others think.

I think I’ll be headed His way before He heads mine. If I get there and it’s not as majestic and awe inspiring as the woods in the Fall or as peaceful as drifting down a South Georgia river, I’ll know I made the wrong turn a while back.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Christianity has alot riding on what they claim will and wont happen upon His return.
What would happen if He showed up and said "Hey just checking in. Gotta go now, catch you later".
There might be some 'splainin to do.

And of course there is also the belief of some in Christianity that He has already returned.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure he could come back today and a great many Church goers would crucify him again because he didn’t fit their ‘profile.’ Doubtful? Visit upstairs and see just how terribly married some are to their dogma.

 

[Spotlite]

Wished @hobbs27 would weigh in. I don’t agree with the AD70 Doctrine but he makes a good case for his belief, which I can respect.

 

[WaltL1]

Wished @hobbs27 would weigh in. I don’t agree with the AD70 Doctrine but he makes a good case for his belief, which I can respect.

THATS who it was - hobbs. I was trying to remember. He does make a good case.
Or at least he makes his case sound good.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Wished @hobbs27 would weigh in. I don’t agree with the AD70 Doctrine but he makes a good case for his belief, which I can respect.

Haven't seen him in a long time. Musta got raptured.

 

[Spotlite]

Haven't seen him in a long time. Musta got raptured.

? that would have caught his attention

 

[SemperFiDawg]

? that would have caught his attention

Yeah, but he would have argued about it with Christ.

 

[buckdancer]

And of course there is also the belief of some in Christianity that He has already returned.

This preterism is really interesting stuff. Thanks for mentioning it.

 

[Israel]

...how will Christianity respond?

How would you know it is Him and not a charlatan proclaiming to be Him (there could be many)?

Do you think it is in the best interest of the church to have the Messiah return with all of the power and influence they have consolidated?

I know there are many different offshoots of Christianity, some believe the literal word while others take a "read between the lines" approach.

Some say their will be signs so they will know, but what if you are not one of those.

This is meant to be a respectful thought experiment, not intended to provoke or offend.

I've often thought about this stuff myself and wondered what some others think.

Do you think it is in the best interest of the church to have the Messiah return with all of the power and influence they have consolidated?

To my mind, that's a great question.

I worked with a professing atheist physician who nevertheless remained quite Jewish in his identity. A brilliant man and mind who skipped high school altogether and graduated college at 18. Then, Yale medical school and all. And I loved (and still love the guy) and, for as much as as superior/subordinate can bear of affection in the workplace (Dr/nurse) we had to ourselves a peculiar relationship. And I think he also knew it...

And man, but this guy loved his work. Even to the extent that I'd sometimes say "I do believe if all turned upside down and you had to pay to do this, you would" And he would smile...knowing. He'd go far more than the extra mile to try and secure a good outcome...not at risk to the patient...but willing to work past the place where others might have seen only futility.

Anyway, with that affection that is able to bear a frankness of quite differing opinions in certain matters (he knew well I professed faith in Messiah Jesus) I asked him one day...knowing that his being familiar with all his "Jewish roots" such could be worded to his understanding (for I often referred to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob)

"Doc, if tonight you had a visitation from the angel of the Lord, and you knew beyond doubt it was a real visitation so convincing you...and the angel said 'Tomorrow when you awaken all sickness, malady, disease and physical disability will be gone'...

Would you be happy?"

Though his answer was not definitive, I saw much in it.

"Y'know, I'd have to think about that"

I think I heard it in the movie Patton of his quoting something attributed to Robert E Lee


"It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it."

Even among our own residents this is known, being well phrased here recently by Gordon (in a reference to grace being in a sense "hard to handle")

tricky for ill tempered lions who fight for the fight as a prize in itself

O! But we easily fall in love with the contests! Our places in it at times...the camaraderie, the "brothers in arms" sense of shared sufferings and endurance to a goal of triumph...and the O! too sweet sense of that "gotcha" when a seeming victory, that sound trouncing of opposition, is garnered.

And war...being even medical (how often I have laced up young residents in their gowns for their participation in surgery or a procedure saying "I am but your squire, helping you don your armor for your battle against morbidity and mortality"...to their smile or puzzlement)...this coming from a 60 something y.o. old fool to a twenty something filled with awe, trepidation and all the fresh eagerness that even doubts and fears cannot deter...all want their "shot at it".


Yes...it is so easy to fall in love with contests. (And their implicit hope of a victory)

But...what is left for those who have, and do fall so easily in love thus...and even in this world where such spoils as grand ministries, great cathedrals, (for me...smaller, but just as dear "soap boxes") names of either some fame or accomplishment (even if only in the smallish pond of "christianity")...suddenly and irretrievably are shown no longer of any use?

Do we really "want it to end"?

Do you think it is in the best interest of the church to have the Messiah return with all of the power and influence they have consolidated?

What is our true "interest"?

Do we really want "The Prince of Peace?"

And I am fairly convinced by a passage in scripture that Jesus...knowing our true estate (often especially made clear to our very own selves in such exuberance as no forethought mediates...those "ecstatic utterances" from the heart)

And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (!)

(Hey this is too cool! Look at the power you give us!)

But Jesus reminds:

"Nevertheless, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Do you think it is in the best interest of the church to have the Messiah return with all of the power and influence they have consolidated?

Excellent question.

 

[gordon 2]

Interesting to think about, but I once dreamed it happened that the dead got out of their graves and very lively they were and patient as they listed on their grave stones like soldiers wait before engagements-- waiting that someone find them and organize some kind of refugee facility-- with canteens.

I found them above a seashore and above a bay. Most had one hand behind their heads and were gazing out to sea-- in a waiting mode. And it occurred to me it was a need for them to find shelters and sustenance and I soon realized that myself and my family alone were not prepared to receive them all or even a small group. And so I panicked some before I figured out the cops might have emergency plans for all these new expectant immigrants. I though they will probably commandeer school buses, church kitchens, halls, motels, and yet occupied developments.

And then I woke up... wondering why I have dreams like this, that my worry is for our fathers and mothers and less so for theirs and our standing before Jesus and that this more or less takes care of itself--- but a place to shower, eat and rest, to do business, meet and greet and to start fresh is still in me. Its like human beings were made to be many and organic, even at Christ's next coming, is at ( for better or worse) the root of who I am.

Its like everyone including myself were busy wondering what they were going to do, not that works were required, but it was just who we are in our exchanges with everything else.

 

[gordon 2]

Israel. Do you think the Martha and Mary narrative will hold water next time? I mean what emphasis will "and love others as your self" have in the next go around?

Lots of Atheists on our planet believe in reincarnation... like Buddhists for example. I suspect for them Martha will be the default reaction. But I have to wonder what the "redeemed" reaction will be considering the golden rule and other indications as in doing "for the least" yee be doing it for the Devine where the Divine declares he is mankind in need.???

 

[gordon 2]

One might assume that with Christ's supposed return we will not need, having no sudden or other desires? Yet Adam before the fall was such a needy fellow that Eve comes out of him with Devine approbation. Seems man has a spirit or is of a consciousness which craves relationship with most things and possibly everything.

 

[Israel]

I know you are not trying to be funny at all, but I am sure provoked to laughter.

For me it kinda cuts right to the heart of the matter. No matter how I try to deal with anything, address anything, think on the Lord, speak of the Lord, "do" in the Lord (as I may consider it)...it's the very sticking point on which all hangs...and I am not sure hang is not the precise word for it.

There's nothing else beyond it or before it anymore...no matter how seemingly far afield I go in thoughts, meditations, prayers, and any and all "doings".

"Lovest thou me?"

And I am now too far gone to pretend something else is the more necessary instruction, command, or even question.

And you hit it...squarely...with some other words that won't "leave me alone"...(Thanks be to God!)

The least. Oh, sure I think I love the Lord. Sure I am able to find those who, in their walk and kind patience, insight, understanding, obvious labors in the word past places of painful surrender, that to me "look (a little more) like Jesus". But, I don't think Jesus is saying that to me anymore in the sense I once embraced matters.

To me now it's more like "OK, but what about the ones that you don't think "look like me"...the ones who...even if knowing they are brothers you don't quite esteem as highly? And what about those who you think even "look least like me"...maybe even that devoutly professing atheist seemingly so opposed...is that, and if that is, the one that is to you "the least"...what's my (the Lord's) instruction? Do you think you can wiggle out of loving...just because you find some justification to? That ain't my (the Lord's) justification!

"As you love your brother, so you love me"...yeah, that too! Man but it's eye opening to see how much scorn the Lord allows himself from me! As much as I hate to see and put it in those terms...I am more skeered of lying before Him. Some are so exasperating "to me" Lord! Some even quite obviously think poorly "of me"...Lord...and say so! Some...Jesus...don't even like me!

(please take a laugh break)

And yes...that one you mention. "Love others as yourself"...well...after all these decades I'd think even the most backward, slow witted, dull of hearing, carnal/unspiritual self centered wretch would have made more progress...while instead I have only learned "wow Lord, I didn't know anyone could love themselves as much as I do, as is now so, and too plain!" And this thing you instruct/command is just so plainly beyond me...it's almost like you were "setting me up for something". My finger Lord...always goes on my side of the scales in everything...tilting (or trying to)..set the scales in my favor!

Yer killing me Jesus!


Yeah. Wife, kids, grand kids, great grand kids, brothers, friends, no matter...I'm always poised to throw someone else "under the bus" when provoked enough to seek to justify myself. I am so venal...such a small man. (and here I once thought I knew what it was to "need to" be saved!)


yet. I find mercy new every morning. There's simply no way I can deny it. I am being loved beyond all reason and can't deny it. And I get reminded of the most paradoxically weird thing that also abides beyond all reason.

"Love one another as I have loved you..." "Forgive as I have forgiven you..."

"But Lord...I am not much in favor of seeing how much mercy I have needed, y'know?" The things disclosed that show this...are very unpleasant to my eyes! Lord...I'd much prefer to sit in my easy chair and have you tell me what a "long way I have come!"

I'd like this portrait of Dorian Gray to be a little less ghoulish to me.

The answer then becomes too plain...and thanks be to God it does!

I can want a pretty...or nice...or pleasant picture of myself...or I can "look away to Jesus".

And there I laugh at how He has indeed "set me up" to do a thing I could never have pried my eyes open enough...to do.

And the "how" of His doing is perfect. Look at a thing whose only promise is to become even more ghastly in your sight...or...just believe me.

And I cannot find fault with any of His way...even if it show me reprobate.

Seeing Him. In whatever way, shape, or form that entails a "looking past" what seems at times the more obvious, plain...even "real" and repugnant...is worth all the enduring.

He's past...sin.

And so surpassingly past it.
Even a man "like me"...can laugh with joy.

 

[gordon 2]

You have a very interesting consciousness Israel.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
https://www.jewsforjudaism.org/know...tionq-mean-in-matthew-24-mark-13-and-luke-21/

I find reconciliation that the generation is the immediate biological generation a bit concerning because of this, " And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. "

The questioning about when will this happen starts with a statement that the beauty or grandeur of the Temple complex and Jesus is said to have said, it will be destroyed. To which the question occurs" When will this happen?" Jesus seems to shift the response from brick and mortar happening to a greater spiritual happening. Therefore a greater time frame is required because we are not talking about piercing a temple wall or gate, we are talking about a dismantling of a spiritual reality with great complexity in the context Jesus is responding to and not so much in how roman fireballs breach defenses or beautiful edifice and to once again exile the Jews...

So "generation" seems to be according to Jesus' response a spiritual generation in my estimation and this spiritual generation is the one he is inaugurating.

I think Paul has it perhaps despite not understanding he does when he says:


"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

In other words it ain't about bricks and mortar or some Shock and Awe adventures of Empires, or strange sky events, its about the long haul spiritual generations take to get where they are meant to go.

So using the idea of " to this generation Jesus will return" cannot be used to condemn Christianity as fake because no Parousia happened within that witnessing or apostolic generation. ( If I'm right. I might not be on the money at all.)

 

[bullethead]

You have a very interesting consciousness Israel.


I find reconciliation that the generation is the immediate biological generation a bit concerning because of this, " And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. "

The questioning about when will this happen starts with a statement that the beauty or grandeur of the Temple complex and Jesus is said to have said, it will be destroyed. To which the question occurs" When will this happen?" Jesus seems to shift the response from brick and mortar happening to a greater spiritual happening. Therefore a greater time frame is required because we are not talking about piercing a temple wall or gate, we are talking about a dismantling of a spiritual reality with great complexity in the context Jesus is responding to and not so much in how roman fireballs breach defenses or beautiful edifice.

So "generation" seems to be according to Jesus' response a spiritual generation in my estimation and this spiritual generation is the one he is inaugurating.

I think Paul has it perhaps despite not understanding he does when he says:


"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

In other words it ain't about bricks and mortar or some Shock and Awe adventures of Empires, or strange sky events, its about the long haul spiritual generations take to get where they are meant to go.

I get it. Nobody admits that what is said in the Bible is how it was meant unless it suits. A god should be cryptic, metaphorical, talk in parables and have others write all those things for them. It really is the best way to keep the meanings as intended, without personal interpretations and does not allow the readers to make excuses for all the things that did not happen. The way it is written does not allow for controversies, misunderstandings or feuds over its authenticity or it's beyond human mindset and ways.
I fully understand why a god would not narrow things down to the exact date and time that all the pieces of the puzzle will come together so that the believers and non could marvel in the accuracy.

 

[gordon 2]

I get it. Nobody admits that what is said in the Bible is how it was meant unless it suits. A god should be cryptic, metaphorical, talk in parables and have others write all those things for them. It really is the best way to keep the meanings as intended, without personal interpretations and does not allow the readers to make excuses for all the things that did not happen. The way it is written does not allow for controversies, misunderstandings or feuds over its authenticity or it's beyond human mindset and ways.
I fully understand why a god would not narrow things down to the exact date and time that all the pieces of the puzzle will come together so that the believers and non could marvel in the accuracy.

FUNNY!

Maybe the salvific importance of Jesus is not the Gospel narratives? Maybe it is something else? Maybe the purported born again experience can happen independent of scripture? Maybe "God" is not the "that was me" that made the Miracle Mets win the 69 world series . Maybe he's not a Marvel super hero? Maybe telling were the game's fortune wheel will stop is just not that important? Maybe something else is more important?

Confusion? The natural man is more than not confused as to fight or flight. The spiritual man is somewhat less confused. If you have noticed, and I know you have, things get confusing for people when they abandon relationships. I think this is one of the great lessons due spirituality or spiritual history. The fighting flighty get all late nite comedy sarcastic and forget about wisdom's limits and loves limitlessness. Maybe.