When the Messiah returns...

[WaltL1]

Nice reverse there on the end quote. I hope and pray one day y’all can see the light and believe cause that’s the only way you will ever see.

Nice reverse there on the end quote.

Thank you. I'll be here all week

I hope and pray one day y’all can see the light and believe cause that’s the only way you will ever see.

If your hopes and prayers are genuine... then thanks.
But me seeing the light isnt going to change the history of mathematics.

 

[WaltL1]

"Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound..."

When you use a book as it's own source then anything can be true.

When I was a kid I put on my Superman costume from Halloween, climbed up in a tree and jumped.
Figured out pretty quick I wasnt Superman.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I used to have that same assumption.

I never did.

 

[bullethead]

When I was a kid I put on my Superman costume from Halloween, climbed up in a tree and jumped.
Figured out pretty quick I wasnt Superman.

You didn't hail from Krypton!
It is a real place, I read it in a book and the book said it is real. If you don't believe me I can show you a passage in the same book. ?

 

[WaltL1]

If this is your definition of truth, then we are in agreement.



People, more specifically people's beliefs in what is true (given your above definition), don't alter what is true. Truth stands on it's own, outside "perceived" reality. I'm pretty sure we are in agreement that beliefs don't make something true or untrue.



This takes us back to my initial point.....i think. Just because you (or me for that matter) don't have enough facts to back up accepting X as true, it doesn't mean it isn't. Since the dawn of man, billions of people have found X as true. Ifffff I'm a rational person, I have to weigh that in my thought process: Billions find X to be true, I can't. Why? Why the disparity? These are the questions I would ask myself. I hope I would not be so prideful that I would find X false (and hence billions of people spread over the face of the earth down through the ages wrong) without making dang sure the problem wasn't with me. It' takes a pretty big ego to doubt most of humanity. The old saying "If you been married 9 times it might be you." comes to mind.



Agree right up to the "because".
With all due respect, "no or not enough facts has no bearing on truth". It speaks to understanding, available facts, or both (or lack thereof). I certainly don't understand the moderately advanced laws of physics, but they are true none-the-less. I lack both understanding and facts regarding them, but I accept them as true and valid because rational people a heck of a lot brighter than me have found them true. They are reproducible also, just not by me. The fault lies in me, not the facts.

Where you added the for you in red -
"I" dont have anything to do with it. The existence of God or gods has not been proven to be true and a fact by anybody. Its not an universal fact. Its a belief.
Facts become facts because they are tested, proven, retested, re-proven,.......

Since the dawn of man, billions of people have found X as true. Ifffff I'm a rational person, I have to weigh that in my thought process: Billions find X to be true, I can't. Why? Why the disparity? These are the questions I would ask myself. I hope I would not be so prideful that I would find X false (and hence billions of people spread over the face of the earth down through the ages wrong) without making dang sure the problem wasn't with me.

Solid advice.
Have you considered that there are more people that DONT believe in the Christian God than do? And that were religious beliefs in other gods long before Christianity existed?
Yes, solid advice.

I'm pretty sure we are in agreement that beliefs don't make something true or untrue.

Yup we agree on that. Do you apply that to your beliefs? I do. Thats why I identify as Agnostic.

 

[Spotlite]

You didn't hail from Krypton!
It is a real place, I read it in a book and the book said it is real. If you don't believe me I can show you a passage in the same book. ?

I read it in a book and the book said it is real. If you don't believe me I can show you a passage in the same book.

But.............................ironically, that`s not why its real................

Now back to using up my new reload supplies I found. Not crazy about ballistic tips but that`s all I could find this go around.

 

[bullethead]

But.............................ironically, that`s not why its real................

Now back to using up my new reload supplies I found. Not crazy about ballistic tips but that`s all I could find this go around.

Don't go full Izzy..
Why is it "real"?

 

[Spotlite]

Don't go full Izzy..
Why is it "real"?

It’s that “great phenomenon” that changes / transforms a man’s life. Not the type where a man has an emotional self check and just starts doing “better”, it’s a complete transformation where the old man dies. One can read the book all they want and believe all they want but until that phenomenon occurs it’ll never be “real” to them even though they can believe it’s real.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Where you added the for you in red -
"I" dont have anything to do with it. The existence of God or gods has not been proven to be true and a fact by anybody.

Its not an universal fact.

Its a belief.
Facts become facts because they are tested, proven, retested, re-proven,.......

Solid advice.
Have you considered that there are more people that DONT believe in the Christian God than do? And that were religious beliefs in other gods long before Christianity existed?
Yes, solid advice.

Yup we agree on that. Do you apply that to your beliefs? I do. Thats why I identify as Agnostic.

Where you added the for you in red

that was supposed to emphasize the fact the you had not found it true. That's all.

The existence of God or gods has not been proven to be true and a fact by anybody.

Patently untrue. It's accurate to say "The existence of God(s) has not been proven to be true to me." Myself along with billions of others have found the existence of God to proven to be true, so you can't accurately make such a blanket statement. This is the whole point of my original post regarding this.

Its not an universal fact.

In what regard........that you don't accept it? I mean, what is your definition for "universal" here?

Its a belief.

Yes, but that's vague. We already agree that beliefs don't establish facts. Best case scenario: beliefs reflect accurate interpretation of facts.

Facts become facts because they are tested, proven, retested, re-proven,.......

If this is the case, any religion, any denomination, any set of beliefs fit this criteria if it's held by just a handful of people.

 

[bullethead]

It’s that “great phenomenon” that changes / transforms a man’s life. Not the type where a man has an emotional self check and just starts doing “better”, it’s a complete transformation where the old man dies. One can read the book all they want and believe all they want but until that phenomenon occurs it’ll never be “real” to them even though they can believe it’s real.

We both know those types of experiences happen in many religions and outside of many religions for reasons that vary as widely as the moments. I knew a hunter who killed more game than the next ten guys combined who had a super buck in his Xhairs and just said bang. He hunted that buck for a few years and when it all came together he couldn't pull the trigger. Never hunted again. He told me he had an epiphany, a moment in nature that changed him.
In a person's lifetime almost everyone has a life altering moment.
Where in any of that is a god specified?

 

[bullethead]

that was supposed to emphasize the fact the you had not found it true. That's all.



Patently untrue. It's accurate to say "The existence of God(s) has not been proven to be true to me." Myself along with billions of others have found the existence of God to proven to be true, so you can't accurately make such a blanket statement. This is the whole point of my original post regarding this.



In what regard........that you don't accept it? I mean, what is your definition for "universal" here?



Yes, but that's vague. We already agree that beliefs don't establish facts. Best case scenario: beliefs reflect accurate interpretation of facts.



If this is the case, any religion, any denomination, any set of beliefs fit this criteria if it's held by just a handful of people.

You are making a great case that all the members of all the different religions are proof that all the gods they worship exist on equal ground.
Can you give examples that back up your claims about the existence of your god to be true?
We have established that you and others believe in a god. What factual evidence can you now provide that shows what you believe in exists?

 

[WaltL1]

that was supposed to emphasize the fact the you had not found it true. That's all.



Patently untrue. It's accurate to say "The existence of God(s) has not been proven to be true to me." Myself along with billions of others have found the existence of God to proven to be true, so you can't accurately make such a blanket statement. This is the whole point of my original post regarding this.



In what regard........that you don't accept it? I mean, what is your definition for "universal" here?



Yes, but that's vague. We already agree that beliefs don't establish facts. Best case scenario: beliefs reflect accurate interpretation of facts.



If this is the case, any religion, any denomination, any set of beliefs fit this criteria if it's held by just a handful of people.

It's accurate to say "The existence of God(s) has not been proven to be true to me." Myself along with billions of others have found the existence of God to proven to be true, so you can't accurately make such a blanket statement. This is the whole point of my original post regarding this.

You are under the false impression that because X number of people who believe something makes it a fact.
I'll point out again that MORE people DONT believe in the Christian God than do.
So if your criteria is X number of people = truth/facts then you lose.

In what regard........that you don't accept it? I mean, what is your definition for "universal" here?

Doesnt matter what I accept or dont accept. If the existence of a god has been proven to be fact, whether I accept it or not makes 0 difference. Have pointed this out in several different ways but you go right back to it.

I mean, what is your definition for "universal" here?

Proven. Recognized world wide as fact.

Best case scenario: beliefs reflect accurate interpretation of facts.

Completely False.
Again, people believe alot of things that can NOT be proven to be true using facts.
I think we have taken this to its end. You keep repeating the same things, I keep showing you why they are not accurate and then you repeat them again.
You have just got to accept that you BELIEVE something that can not be proven to be a fact. Except to those who BELIEVE the same as you do.
I dont get why that seems to be unpalatable to you.

 

[WaltL1]

You are making a great case that all the members of all the different religions are proof that all the gods they worship exist on equal ground.
Can you give examples that back up your claims about the existence of your god to be true?
We have established that you and others believe in a god. What factual evidence can you now provide that shows what you believe in exists?

You are making a great case that all the members of all the different religions are proof that all the gods they worship exist on equal ground.

SFD doesnt see that. He is only applying it to what he believes and doesnt think it would also apply to other peoples beliefs.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

You are making a great case that all the members of all the different religions are proof that all the gods they worship exist on equal ground.

Wrong.

that all the members of all the different religions are proof

Never said nor implied. In fact, not even in the same ballpark as what is being discussed.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

SFD doesnt see that. He is only applying it to what he believes and doesnt think it would also apply to other peoples beliefs.

Y'all need to step back and re-read what I've typed without any pretense or attempt to paint me into a corner, because how you arrive at this:

You are making a great case that all the members of all the different religions are proof that all the gods they worship exist on equal ground.

from this:

Facts become facts because they are tested, proven, retested, re-proven,.......

to which my reply was

If this is the case, any religion, any denomination, any set of beliefs fit this criteria if it's held by just a handful of people.

is beyond me. If anything I was arguing against your broad interpretation of "facts" and in direct contradiction to what Bullet surmised from the discussion, and to which you agreed with him.

 

[WaltL1]

Y'all need to step back and re-read what I've typed without any pretense or attempt to paint me into a corner, because how you arrive at this:

from this:



to which my reply was



is beyond me. If anything I was arguing against your broad interpretation of "facts" and in direct contradiction to what Bullet surmised from the discussion, and to which you agreed with him.

Y'all need to step back and re-read what I've typed without any pretense or attempt to paint me into a corner,

I think therein ^ lies the problem. You are convinced we are attempting to paint you into a corner. We dont need to. You'll never believe it but its your own words that do the painting. When we point that out, you are rearranging the words but saying the same things. Thats why I say things like -

You keep repeating the same things, I keep showing you why they are not accurate and then you repeat them again.

This -

You are making a great case that all the members of all the different religions are proof that all the gods they worship exist on equal ground.

Refers to the case you have made several times now that X number of people believe something is true so therefore its true and a fact. You dont seem to get that would also apply to other beliefs and religions. That would put all religions and all gods on equal ground.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

You are under the false impression that because X number of people who believe something makes it a fact.

Jeez Walt, how many time and in how many ways do I have to say that I don't hold to this. I know I've said it at least 3 times in our discussion over the last couple of days.

I'll point out again that MORE people DONT believe in the Christian God than do.

I've already said we can leave my God out of this and have tried to do my best. If you'll look back you're the one who keeps inserting "my God", not me.

So if your criteria is X number of people = truth/facts then you lose.

Nope. This:

Facts become facts because they are tested, proven, retested, re-proven,.......

was your criteria, not mine. I was simply pointing out that IFFFFFFF this is YOUR criteria for facts

1) It's very broad

2) Every belief held by even a handful of people fit's it and is therefore (according to your definition) a fact.

Doesnt matter what I accept or dont accept. If the existence of a god has been proven to be fact, whether I accept it or not makes 0 difference. Have pointed this out in several different ways but you go right back to it.

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone here. AGAIN, WE ARE IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT ON THIS. I'm not the one who keeps going back to it. This horse is dead, rotted and the bones are bleached into a brilliant white.

Proven. Recognized world wide as fact.

Again. What is 'world wide'? The earth is 'proven' to be round, but depending on your definition of 'world wide' you can't say it's 'world wide' because there's a handful of flat earthers out there.

Completely False

to

Best case scenario: beliefs reflect accurate interpretation of facts.

Did you miss the qualifier "Best case scenario"? Because if you didn't, what's the point of this:

Again, people believe alot of things that can NOT be proven to be true using facts.
I think we have taken this to its end. You keep repeating the same things, I keep showing you why they are not accurate and then you repeat them again.
You have just got to accept that you BELIEVE something that can not be proven to be a fact. Except to those who BELIEVE the same as you do.
I dont get why that seems to be unpalatable to you.

?

For the record, I feel it's a matter of you keep hearing the same thing, not me keep repeating the same thing. This is what I believe and the entire point of me engaging in this discussion with you: I believe in something that cannot or has not been proven to be a fact TO YOU. It takes a lot of ego for me or anyone else to say that just because I don't find the facts that exists support me believing in X while billions of others do, that X doesn't exists. I don't get why that seems unpalatable to you. But I do agree it's probably time to put this one to bed.[/QUOTE]

 

[WaltL1]

Jeez Walt, how many time and in how many ways do I have to say that I don't hold to this. I know I've said it at least 3 times in our discussion over the last couple of days.



I've already said we can leave my God out of this and have tried to do my best. If you'll look back you're the one who keeps inserting "my God", not me.



Nope. This:



was your criteria, not mine. I was simply pointing out that IFFFFFFF this is YOUR criteria for facts

1) It's very broad

2) Every belief held by even a handful of people fit's it and is therefore (according to your definition) a fact.



I feel like I'm in the twilight zone here. AGAIN, WE ARE IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT ON THIS. I'm not the one who keeps going back to it. This horse is dead, rotted and the bones are bleached into a brilliant white.



Again. What is 'world wide'? The earth is 'proven' to be round, but depending on your definition of 'world wide' you can't say it's 'world wide' because there's a handful of flat earthers out there.




to



Did you miss the qualifier "Best case scenario"? Because if you didn't, what's the point of this:

?

For the record, I feel it's a matter of you keep hearing the same thing, not me keep repeating the same thing. This is what I believe and the entire point of me engaging in this discussion with you: I believe in something that cannot or has not been proven to be a fact TO YOU. It takes a lot of ego for me or anyone else to say that just because I don't find the facts that exists support me believing in X while billions of others do, that X doesn't exists. I don't get why that seems unpalatable to you. But I do agree it's probably time to put this one to bed.

[/QUOTE]
Last comment and perfect example -

I believe in something that cannot or has not been proven to be a fact TO YOU.

I dont have anything to do with it. The existence of any god has not been proven to be a universal fact. They are beliefs.
You keep inserting TO YOU in there.
Its not "to me". Mankind has a process for establishing what is a fact and what is a belief. The existence of gods does not meet the criteria to be called a fact.
Notice all your highlighted words - To You, I, me.
None of them matter. None of them means squat. They are a false argument. Your point is flawed. Its not accurate.
But yet again there they are.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Last comment and perfect example -

I dont have anything to do with it. The existence of any god has not been proven to be a universal fact. They are beliefs.
You keep inserting TO YOU in there.
Its not "to me". Mankind has a process for establishing what is a fact and what is a belief. The existence of gods does not meet the criteria to be called a fact.
Notice all your highlighted words - To You, I, me.
None of them matter. None of them means squat. They are a false argument. Your point is flawed. Its not accurate.
But yet again there they are.[/QUOTE]

smh

 

[Spotlite]

We both know those types of experiences happen in many religions and outside of many religions for reasons that vary as widely as the moments. I knew a hunter who killed more game than the next ten guys combined who had a super buck in his Xhairs and just said bang. He hunted that buck for a few years and when it all came together he couldn't pull the trigger. Never hunted again. He told me he had an epiphany, a moment in nature that changed him.
In a person's lifetime almost everyone has a life altering moment.
Where in any of that is a god specified?

I can agree that life changing experiences happens in many religions and, even outside of religion.

He told me he had an epiphany, a moment in nature that changed him

Happens across the board. But not the experience I’m speaking of.

Where in any of that is a god specified?

Book of Acts.